Phobic

Adding weight on top of speakers

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36 minutes ago, Viven said:

I would first advise lifting the speaker cable of the floor and investing in some high quality interconnects and power cables. This will improve soundstage massively and introduce Inky blacks. It will be like a veil has been lifted. 

You forgot earth boxes. It will give better 3 dimensionality. 😬😈

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ok fair enough, everyone's telling me I'm overthinking things :)

3 hours ago, dudywoxer said:

You seem to be jumping around in all directions looking for faults to fix.

I know it seems like I'm jumping around in all directions looking for faults and that I should just chill out and relax, that's not quite what's going on though...

I guess this is as good a place as any....:) sorry this post is a lot longer than I expected.

"before" my hifi was just a way to listen to music, to upgrade I'd just buy gear that was 1 level above & be happy. I've now got to a stage with my set up where to move things on I feel I need to understand things better so I can make the right decisions on how to spend a finite budget, and decide in which order I should focus improvements. There's a lot of choices out there for someone with less experience to get their head around..... This has led to a lot of research and as a result a lot of questions as my understanding of things increases.

When I get answers to things it often opens up entirely new lines of interlinked thinking, I kinda see it more as I'm moving into the next level of experience & understanding. There's no real way to close pandora's box now it's open...

I know I may come over as a bit of an excited puppy, I am very keen yes, and I am very much enjoying that I'm learning a lot, it's fun!

However under it all I have a plan, I have enough experience to understand where my knowledge gaps are and I'm systematically going down a mental list to plug those gaps - I'm investing a lot of time & energy right now to do so because I'm leading up to a pretty big investment in the new year for my next planned upgrade.

In all the questions I've had the only actual changes I've made so far is to spend £20 on some vibration pads, and I've moved my chair a bit!

I've got a few months to finish getting all the answers I need, then I'm going to start spending cold hard cash. If I don't get clarity in my head I'm going to make sub-optimal choices and potentially mistakes, I doubt any of these will be disastrous but at the cost of putting the time in to learn about things now I'd be silly not to make the effort, especially when I'm enjoying it.

I'm not sure how long it took all of you to acquire the knowledge and experience you have to get to where you are, I'm trying to get myself from where I am to a place where I can buy my end game setup - I know the next system I buy will more likely than not be the best system I will ever own, or at the very least it will be the template on which I develop for many years to come. 

Let me finish with an example of what I've learnt and how things have changed with my incessant questioning.

Old Phobic's next upgrade plan was to add a little bit more room treatment without any real thought other than the rooms bigger so I must need more. I planned to upgrade to a Linn Klimax streamer/pre-amp, then upgrade the DAC on my current Linn Aukubarik speakers. Some time down the line I'd have replaced the Aukbarik's with Klimax speakers and bought some Klimax solo's to complete the set. This would have gotten me a pretty decent setup that would have been a great improvement on where I am now. It also would have been bloody expensive...

Where I am now

  • My room is the biggest problem I have with my setup. I'm going to build a dedicated listening room to sort it out (something I've always dreamed of doing). I now know what I need to do if I'm to get the best out of the new room given the constraints I have to work with.
  • Room treatment needs to be thought through in detail but I'm going to re-do things ground up specifically for my new listening room (I'd reused old stuff previously). Still a bit more work to do but I want to be able to drive REW to help me analyse room modes, help pick the right treatment, test it's effectiveness, and help with Listening position/treatment positioning 
  • I want the flexibility to integrate a multi-sub setup into my system (this question about weight on speakers applies more to these subs as it does my current speakers, I know it's a slightly different topic, but that's where my thinking's taking me). This will help address issue with the new room
  • The speaker choice to fit my room characteristics and integration with subs is really important now, a down firing bass might not be the best choice for a suspended floor for example (I also now have options on how to address the floor).
  • I can now read & understand stereophile speaker reviews, electrical characteristics, impulse & step responses etc, I've already got the start of a list of speakers that I want to consider & demo, and I've considered pros/cons of new versus used
  • I want the option/ability to integrate DSP into my system - I've learnt the basic principles and have taught myself (badly) how to use it
  • I know more now about power, electrical engineering, RF interference, induction and ground loops than I ever thought I'd need to

Given where I am now, there's not a single thing on my old upgrade wish list which I would now buy.

And finally (if you're still reading :) ) in case you think I'm not enjoying the music enough right now, take a look at the "what are you listening to right now" thread, it's the place where I think I post the most....truth is I've never played more music or enjoyed things as much as I do with my current setup, but this system was an emergency stop gap, I had to buy something when an amp failed or I'd have been without music for far too long, it was always planned to just be a stop gap.

The more I learn the more I appreciate that things will be much better with my next system, that makes me want to learn even more, and you have all been so patient, kind and helpful, you make it very easy to ask questions :) 

so ultimately it's all your fault for being so nice.

Edited by Phobic
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3 hours ago, Viven said:

I would first advise lifting the speaker cable of the floor and investing in some high quality interconnects and power cables. This will improve soundstage massively and introduce Inky blacks. It will be like a veil has been lifted. 

If I had a shilling for each time I hear this sort of claim I'd be rich.  Doesn't stand examination using long-established rules of physics. 

Edited by hearhere
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If you'd asked about putting a weight on a subwoofer you'd have got different answers :). In particular I don't think anyone will have designed one where any cabinet vibration has a positive impact.

You can get subwoofers which have a pair of drivers pointing in opposite directions, with one claimed benefit being that this reduces overall vibration. I did actually swap a couple of messages with Tom Vodhanel of Power Sound Audio (and formally the 'V' of SVS) whose view was that this didn't bring any audible advantage worth worrying about. Possibly in part because at the point there is significant vibration a sub will also be producing a fair amount of sound to mask its effects.

If a weight was placed on a sub I'd definitely want something like Sorbothane between the weight and the sub, because otherwise the weight would probably end up scratching the top, and might actually cause noise that wasn't there already.

I don't have a weight on my sub by the way, but nor have I tried one. My current sub itself weighs 28 kg, and my previous one 47 kg, so it's not like they're inherently flimsy.

On your general discussion about looking into all the factors that you are I think it's important to keep an idea of their relative importance. Factors like room layout, DSP, whether to integrate subwoofers and possible room treatment are VASTLY more significant than many of the other things you've been asking about. 

Edited by MartinC
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3 hours ago, Tony_J said:

You could always see if Shakti stones make a difference... :cafe:

:sofa:

I have 3 Shakti stones if people want to try them near me.  I find they work on top of valve amp transformers. It's subtle inprovement, but it's there.

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Super Dealer
15 minutes ago, hearhere said:

If I had a shilling for each time I hear this sort of nonsense I'd be rich.  Doesn't stand examination using long-established rules of physics. 

I will certainly not be lifting my speaker cables off the carpet, but mainly because are already lifted off the carpet! (No, not on cable lifters, that is just the way they are).

Anyway, Mr Long-Established Rules of Physics, it might be surprising but the LCR of cables does alter if sat on the carpet compared to suspended above it. I know because I have measured it. I'm not sayin' they sound different, just that cable lifters are not quite so far fetched as you imply.

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31 minutes ago, MartinC said:

If you'd asked about putting a weight on a subwoofer you'd have got different answers :)

I know I'd get a different question on subs, it was in the back of my mind. it's just easier to ask a cleaner less confused question and then go away and do all the background reading.

It's going to be a 6-12 months before I start looking at buying subs in anger so just easier to ask an idle here and now question that I was pondering that I couldn't find a clear answer on when I searched. And I did search, I know more about baffle design now that I really wanted to!

31 minutes ago, MartinC said:

You can get subwoofers which have a pair of drivers pointing in opposite directions, with one claimed benefit being that this reduces overall vibration. I did actually swap a couple of messages with Tom Vodhanel of Power Sound Audio (and formally the 'V' of SVS) whose view was that this didn't bring any audible advantage worth worrying about. Possibly in part because at the point there is significant vibration a sub will also be producing a fair amount of sound to mask its effects.

If a weight was placed on a sub I'd definitely want something like Sorbothane between the weight and the sub, because otherwise the weight would probably end up scratching the top, and might actually cause noise that wasn't there already.

I don't have a weight on my sub by the way, but nor have I tried one. My current sub itself weighs 28 kg, and my previous one 47 kg, so it's not like they're inherently flimsy.

Thanks for the Sub advice :) 

31 minutes ago, MartinC said:

On your general discussion about looking into all the factors that you are I think it's important to keep an idea of their relative importance. Factors like room layout, DSP, whether to integrate subwoofers and possible room treatment are VASTLY more significant than many of the other things you've been asking about. 

I know they are, that's why I mentioned them 1st :)  they're also the things I've spent a lot of time and energy researching, lots more to learn here I know.

the thing is that the learning curve with this is quite big and it takes time to get to the right degree of competence, Floyd isn't the shortest book in the world but I'm chipping away at it - at the same time I'm doing that there's no reason to ask other questions which crop up. My knowledge is better in some areas than others, I can still move my understanding along everywhere.

1 last thought, it's really nice to talk to people about hifi, this is a chat forum afterall ;) 

Right I'm off to read about Shakti stones, I'm sure I saw some for sale cheap on ebay, hope they're small enough to fit inside the ports on my speakers

Edited by Phobic

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21 minutes ago, Phobic said:

1 last thought, it's really nice to talk to people about hifi, this is a chat forum afterall ;) 

Touchingly naive.  You'll learn. ;-)

21 minutes ago, Phobic said:

Right I'm off to read about Shakti stones, I'm sure I saw some for sale cheap on ebay, hope they're small enough to fit inside the ports on my speakers

a] Shakti Stones are not particularly heavy, b] they're not made of stone (see a), c] it's not what they're intended for, and d] no they likely won't fit the ports on your speakers –they're roughly the size of a paperback novel.

I think the suggestion was made essentially tongue in cheek.

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I use these on my speakers - Townshend super tweeters.... you could kill two birds with one stone here by improving sound quality and adding some "weights" 

IMG_20180120_1311332.jpg

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Super Wammer

Great to know that you have a plan.  If you do go back to thinking about a weight on top of your speakers may I suggest a pair of these instead?  https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/85-150cm-telescopic-ceiling-support-rod_201697281.html. Please take this as friendly ribbing and good luck with the room build.  On YouTube there are a lot of studio build videos and maybe there are a few things to be taken from these as well as the more traditional music room ones.  I am personally following Dr Mix's new studio build - not because it's the best example but because he has a good channel and he is very human, normal and enthusiastic - nothing too technical but some good ideas. He has nearly 500,000 subscribers 

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Super Wammer
1 hour ago, hearhere said:

If I had a shilling for each time I hear this sort of claim I'd be rich.  Doesn't stand examination using long-established rules of physics. 

You’ve disappointed me now, as I thought it was meant to be ironic, though maybe an exclamation mark or smiley might have confirmed it!  Three or more Hi-Fi cliches in one post qualifies as humour in my book.  Even my wife heard it that way.

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40 minutes ago, notevenclose said:

Touchingly naive.  You'll learn. ;-)

I already am, from what I've seen people are either super nice & helpful, or vengefully hateful balls of spite. There doesn't seem to be much in the middle :roll:

I've not yet had the hate, give it time....

40 minutes ago, notevenclose said:

I think the suggestion was made essentially tongue in cheek.

as was shoving them up my bung hole.

33 minutes ago, DomT said:

Great to know that you have a plan.  If you do go back to thinking about a weight on top of your speakers may I suggest a pair of these instead?  https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/85-150cm-telescopic-ceiling-support-rod_201697281.html. Please take this as friendly ribbing and good luck with the room build.  On YouTube there are a lot of studio build videos and maybe there are a few things to be taken from these as well as the more traditional music room ones.  I am personally following Dr Mix's new studio build - not because it's the best example but because he has a good channel and he is very human, normal and enthusiastic - nothing too technical but some good ideas. He has nearly 500,000 subscribers 

thanks for the friendly ribbing, it makes me feel like one of the boys :hom:I'm welling up.

the youtube vid is great thanks, I'd never thought to even look there for something like that, just the sort of thing I'd like to watch

Edited by Phobic

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Super Wammer
6 minutes ago, Phobic said:

I already am, from what I've seen people are either super nice & helpful, or vengefully hateful balls of spite. There doesn't seem to be much in the middle :roll:

I've not yet had the hate, give it time....

as was shoving them up my bung hole.

thanks for the friendly ribbing, it makes me feel like one of the boys :hom:I'm welling up.

the youtube vid is great thanks, I'd never thought to even look there for something like that, just the sort of thing I'd like to watch

Its worth watching all of his videos on the build then as he covers electrics, sound insulation etc.  Its useful enough to get orientated on what to consider.  Here is the first one and then you should be able to find the subsequent ones.  There is normally one topic per video eg Acustics.

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1 hour ago, It Cost How Much!?! said:

I have 3 Shakti stones if people want to try them near me.  I find they work on top of valve amp transformers. It's subtle inprovement, but it's there.

Actually, I'm not at all surprised.

Shakti stones have something inside that can affect magnetic fields. I've got it somewhere in the growing pile of paper here, but many years back a Japanese gentleman presented a paper at a major electrical engineering conference showing that placing a lump of iron on top of an amplifier case had measurable effects. This is because it will change to an extent the way a transformer works.

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5 minutes ago, DomT said:

Its worth watching all of his videos on the build then as he covers electrics, sound insulation etc.  Its useful enough to get orientated on what to consider.  Here is the first one and then you should be able to find the subsequent ones.  There is normally one topic per video eg Acustics.

great thanks, I eat these up, I've been watching youtube on double speed for years, you can really get through a hell of a lot of videos that way

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