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bohemian

they are all the same! politicians!

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1 minute ago, Ron Hilditch said:

Don't totally agree with your comments on moderate Tories being chased out.  Think you believe anyone associated with Brexit must be a right wing extremist?   Regarding America, Biden has raised over $140 million in the last week.  It in the main comes from rich business interests.  We see internet media companies interfering in the Presidential Election.  Dangerous times for democracy over there. One thing is certain, the rich contributors will expect payback if Biden gets in!

When have big business & the media not been interfering in the elections of the last +/-50 years? It's next to impossible to run for office without millions of dollars, so it's never a revelation to find out the final candidates are shady. The fact Trump is seen by his base as an 'outsider draining the swamp' is testament to the naivety of some parts of the electorate.

As for Brexit the majority associated with it in this form really are right-wing extremists. Euroscepticism was a standard position of the traditional Labour left, but the plan was never to achieve it for the purposes of running tax havens, filling corporate pockets, privatising everything not nailed down.

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19 minutes ago, Ron Hilditch said:

Don't totally agree with your comments on moderate Tories being chased out.  Think you believe anyone associated with Brexit must be a right wing extremist?   Regarding America, Biden has raised over $140 million in the last week.  It in the main comes from rich business interests.  We see internet media companies interfering in the Presidential Election.  Dangerous times for democracy over there. One thing is certain, the rich contributors will expect payback if Biden gets in!

They weren't all chased out. One notable case that was, is Rory Stewart.

Then look at the 21 (many very high profile, like N. Soames, Ken Clarke and P. Hammond) who had the whip removed....alright, 10 of them had it restored, but the message was clear. Also, just look at the current Cabinet - most of them are not there because they are competent, but because they will support Johnson's lies - so their job is safe, no matter how incompetent they are.

Edited by CnoEvil
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My point was more in the sense of “one rule for us and another for you”.

As Babiš said “We cannot preach water and drink wine”.

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11 minutes ago, CnoEvil said:

They weren't all chased out. One notable case that was, is Rory Stewart.

Then look at the 21 (many very high profile, like N. Soames, Ken Clarke and P. Hammond) who had the whip removed....alright, 10 of them had it restored, but the message was clear. Also, just look at the current Cabinet - most of them are not there because they are competent, but because they will support Johnson's lies - so their job is safe, no matter how incompetent they are.

Like you I thought it was a bad day when Rory Stewart, left Parliament and politics.   The other three refused to accept the democratic principle of obeying the evil of the people.  Phillip Hammond was arrorant beyond belief and should have been kicked out long before he was!  Regarding Le Baron's comment on right wing extremists.  Does he believe over 19 million of us were and are extremists?  The Brexit vote was biggest in the poorest areas.  Was it because these people thought they had nothing to lose?  What gets me about many of you who voted to remain, is how you never think of yourselves as enemies of democracy.  Maybe the label 'Extremist',  should be hung round your necks.

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1 minute ago, Ron Hilditch said:

Like you I thought it was a bad day when Rory Stewart, left Parliament and politics.   The other three refused to accept the democratic principle of obeying the evil of the people.  Phillip Hammond was arrorant beyond belief and should have been kicked out long before he was!  Regarding Le Baron's comment on right wing extremists.  Does he believe over 19 million of us were and are extremists?  The Brexit vote was biggest in the poorest areas.  Was it because these people thought they had nothing to lose?  What gets me about many of you who voted to remain, is how you never think of yourselves as enemies of democracy.  Maybe the label 'Extremist',  should be hung round your necks.

Let me remind you of the primary duty of an MP:

'The first duty of a member of Parliament is to do what he thinks in his faithful and disinterested judgement is right and necessary for the honour and safety of Great Britain. His second duty is to his constituents, of whom he is the representative but not the delegate. Burke's famous declaration on this subject is well known. It is only in the third place that his duty to party organization or programme takes rank. All these three loyalties should be observed, but there in no doubt of the order in which they stand under any healthy manifestation of democracy.' Sir Winston Churchill on the Duties of a Member of Parliament.

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Just now, CnoEvil said:

Let me remind you of the primary duty of an MP:

'The first duty of a member of Parliament is to do what he thinks in his faithful and disinterested judgement is right and necessary for the honour and safety of Great Britain. His second duty is to his constituents, of whom he is the representative but not the delegate. Burke's famous declaration on this subject is well known. It is only in the third place that his duty to party organization or programme takes rank. All these three loyalties should be observed, but there in no doubt of the order in which they stand under any healthy manifestation of democracy.' Sir Winston Churchill on the Duties of a Member of Parliament.

Yet all four Politicians you named, voted for the referendum.  So unless they were lying and unscrupulous?  They then must follow the democratic mandate, given to them by the British People.  Think the key word in Burke's declaration is 'disinterested.'  How can you be sure, none of them had an interest in remaining.  Even so they voted for the referendum and by doing do commited themselves to obeying the result.

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On 23/10/2020 at 18:54, Ron Hilditch said:

Yet all four Politicians you named, voted for the referendum.  So unless they were lying and unscrupulous?  They then must follow the democratic mandate, given to them by the British People.  Think the key word in Burke's declaration is 'disinterested.'  How can you be sure, none of them had an interest in remaining.  Even so they voted for the referendum and by doing do commited themselves to obeying the result.

IMO. Your logic is flawed. 

Voting to have a Referendum was not a licence to engineer a No Deal and damage the country. Ironically, if MPs had followed Churchill's advice, we wouldn't be in this mess.

Polls show, there is no appetite in the Country for a No Deal. 

There is a mandate for Brexit. There is no mandate to make it as damaging as possible.

It is the absolute duty of MPs to point out if they believe the course of action being taken, is going to unnecessarily damage the country.

I can even quote you what D.Davis said about holding Referendums - and this Referendum went against everything he said should happen.

This has all been said before and nothing is to be gained by going over old arguments.

Edited by CnoEvil

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51 minutes ago, Ron Hilditch said:

Like you I thought it was a bad day when Rory Stewart, left Parliament and politics.   The other three refused to accept the democratic principle of obeying the evil of the people.

Freudian slip????????

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1 hour ago, CnoEvil said:

Give me Starmer over Johnson any day of the week.

I think Starmer argues better than Johnson but the right answer to which of them is neither.

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1 hour ago, audio_PHIL_e said:

I think Starmer argues better than Johnson but the right answer to which of them is neither.

Until you can show me where Starmer has lied, broken the law and has done something that is equivalent to misleading the Queen; unlawfully proroguing Parliament; passing legislation that allows us to break international law; undermining a Peace treaty; not firing cabinet members for incompetence because they are loyal; putting his support for Cummings's lie, ahead of the health and welfare of the nation; overseeing one of the highest death rates in the EU, along with the worst forecast for economic damage in the G7 and telling his followers to vote for an "Oven Ready" Brexit deal, knowing it will be undermined......then I will continue to think Starmer is by far the better choice.

Edited by CnoEvil
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This is what public schoolboy Tory MP Ben Bradley thinks of people receiving free school meals.

More broadly, we can see this is what he thinks of anyone who didn't go to public school.

A wicked, evil, disgrace of a man. Perfectly at home in Johnson's Conservative Party.

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Edited by notaclue

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2 hours ago, CnoEvil said:

Until you can show me where Starmer has lied, broken the law and has done something that is equivalent to misleading the Queen; unlawfully proroguing Parliament; passing legislation that allows us to break international law; undermining a Peace treaty; not firing cabinet members for incompetence because they are loyal; putting his support for Cummings's lie, ahead of the health and welfare of the nation; overseeing one of the highest death rates in the EU, along with the worst forecast for economic damage in the G7 and telling his followers to vote for an "Oven Ready" Brexit deal, knowing it will be undermined......then I will continue to think Starmer is by far the better choice.

Starmer hasn't had the opportunity to do those things. Give him half a chance and he'd do the same. He's no better than Johnson and don't kid yourself.

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Just now, audio_PHIL_e said:

Starmer hasn't had the opportunity to do those things. Give him half a chance and he'd do the same. He's no better than Johnson and don't kid yourself.

What evidence do you have for saying that?

Johnson, on the other hand, has made a career out of lying, cheating and showing incompetence - going right back to being fired from his first job at the Times for lying.

His House Master at Eton had him nicely summed up:  “Boris really has adopted a disgracefully cavalier attitude to his classical studies . . . Boris sometimes seems affronted when criticised for what amounts to a gross failure of responsibility (and surprised at the same time that he was not appointed Captain of the School for next half): I think he honestly believes that it is churlish of us not to regard him as an exception, one who should be free of the network of obligation which binds everyone else.”

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4 hours ago, Ron Hilditch said:

Like you I thought it was a bad day when Rory Stewart, left Parliament and politics.   The other three refused to accept the democratic principle of obeying the evil of the people.  Phillip Hammond was arrorant beyond belief and should have been kicked out long before he was!  Regarding Le Baron's comment on right wing extremists.  Does he believe over 19 million of us were and are extremists?  The Brexit vote was biggest in the poorest areas.  Was it because these people thought they had nothing to lose?  What gets me about many of you who voted to remain, is how you never think of yourselves as enemies of democracy.  Maybe the label 'Extremist',  should be hung round your necks.

Not all extremists, but among that 19 million many thoroughly misguided as to why those particular Tories (plus the entryists from UKIP etc) gunned for that Brexit. To give balance I also think a goodly number of dedicated remainers have a completely naive and rose-tinted view of the EU, especially economically. I live in mainland Europe so politically/socially Brexit is a disaster for me. But I have long been a critic of EU economic policy. However, what is EU economic policy? It is exactly the same neoliberalism Thatcher wheeled out (total deregulation of capital mobility; NAIRU approach to unemployment - a flawed theory which trades misery & death for so-called inflation control; ever less public expenditure), which is why she loved the EU's main architect Jacques Delors so much.

The EU economic approach has put the priorities of capital and corporations above any of the needs of citizens and serves a particular group: highly mobile professionals with financial freedom. Its idealism has taken good ideas like labour mobility (because its good to bring people to places where there is work & also to bring workers to places that need industry/services) and turned them into a nightmare where everything is sucked out of certain communities at the expense of others. The Euro is an obvious failure, it's simply impossible to have one central bank making decisions about very different national economies and setting idiotic rules about fixed tiny deficits which blocks fiscal expansion in times of demand collapse.

However, this is also roughly the same methodology everywhere. Promoted by the IMF/World Bank among others and driven by power blocs like the U.S. EU. including the UK as part of it. This is why Brexit is really a sham and especially so under the mendacious Tories. The UK has currency sovereignty and even had it as an EU member. It also had no opt-in to the EU's growth and stability pact and so during Thatcher, Major, Blair, Cameron, May and now this blonde fool they could have been doing everything in their power to alleviate the misery of the left-behind in areas who fell for the bald lie that economic misery in the 'red wall' areas was "all because of Brussels". Let's be clear, many of these people have been pursuing EU withdrawal for a very long time. As far back as the late James Goldsmith who spent a career as an asset-stripper promoting all the tenets of monetarism, neoliberalism, privatisation... then saw how destructive its powerful personification was in the EU. The red-turned-blue wall have had a very hard lesson about how a Tory Brexit govt is not going to save it from economic austerity, which was the very reason it has been stagnant for about 40 years.

Anyone can read Rory Stewart's vote record on https://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/24964/rory_stewart/penrith_and_the_border/votes. It's compiled from HoC records. It's not all that different from most Tory voting records.

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6 hours ago, CnoEvil said:

I hate generalisations....as I don't think it's fair to tarnish those with integrity - and there are still those with integrity.

We are going through a global phase atm, where populism and Dictators rule, giving the impression that they are all the same.

There are politicians with integrity. God knows why any decent person would want to enter politics now with unaccountable social media cynicism and keyboard warriors.
But thankfully here the cynical are allowed to debate  - unlike perhaps in Russia or Belarus or elsewhere.
A healthy democratic debate...
 

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