My digital world: reclocking experiences

[TheFlash 3,533]

4 hours ago, Getgaff said:

If one wanted to daisy chain two of these devices, would it work with the MC-3+ USB taking all inputs, outputting to the cheaper MC-3+ and then onto a DAC?

I have two (they basically came together, pre-owned, in an eBay buy 1 get one half-price deal). I haven't rigorously compared one with two. Two things:

1. I'm not at all convinced by the logic of cascading. If a signal is reclocked using a quality clock, how can reclocking that again make it better?
2. If you had an MC-3+ USB and an MC-3+, the only reason to use the USB one first in the chain would be if you wanted to use the USB input. THe non-USB bits of both devices are identical.

Hope this helps

Nigel

[Nopiano 2,453]

57 minutes ago, TheFlash said:

Mutec into Chord? if Nick sticks my Mutec(s) on the front of his Chord DAC then if Rob Watts is right it would make no difference... or if the noise point is correct it might be "initially impressive but ultimately fatiguing" as Nick likes to describe the impact of noise. Me? I'm always impressed by Chord but wouldn't have (most of) it in my own system for musical enjoyment.

I understand the misgivings, but given you and Nick have disproved Chords claim that ‘the standard power supplies can’t be improved’ (or however they word it), you might find that the Mutec makes the sound smoother or clearer, but without added detail (something Chord detractors typically say is already a problem).  That would 2-O to you!  

[Fourlegs 2,240]

23 minutes ago, Nopiano said:

I understand the misgivings, but given you and Nick have disproved Chords claim that ‘the standard power supplies can’t be improved’ (or however they word it), you might find that the Mutec makes the sound smoother or clearer, but without added detail (something Chord detractors typically say is already a problem).  That would 2-O to you!  

One of Nigel's Mutecs has been in my system and I admit I cannot recollect if or what if anything it did!! I think Nigel mentioned the visit but we were also playing with power supplies at the same time and the changed dc leads to Nigel's Allo Shanti so there was plenty to distract us.

As I have said though (at least twice in this thread) I did hear an improvement when using the Phoenix reclocker but I am more inclined to think that might be down to the better power supply in the Phoenix compared to the lesser Zenith I had at the time.

[PuritéAudio 1,374]

1 hour ago, Nopiano said:

I understand the misgivings, but given you and Nick have disproved Chords claim that ‘the standard power supplies can’t be improved’ (or however they word it), you might find that the Mutec makes the sound smoother or clearer, but without added detail (something Chord detractors typically say is already a problem).  That would 2-O to you!  

Have they!

Keith

Edited November 17, 2020 by PuritéAudio

[TheFlash 3,533]

2 hours ago, Fourlegs said:

As I have said though (at least twice in this thread) I did hear an improvement when using the Phoenix reclocker but I am more inclined to think that might be down to the better power supply in the Phoenix compared to the lesser Zenith I had at the time.

Why might you be so inclined?

Because of something specific to the Chord DAC internal clocks rendering external reclocking redundant? If we are to accept Mr Watts' view of the world and the place his designs hold in it, the Phoenix-augmented DAVE would sound worse than the Phoneix-free DAVE. I presume that while the Phoenix reclocks, the Zenith does not. So you're getting sonic benefits from the Phoenix power supply outweighing the sonic hit of the reclocking process, and comparing that with the non-reclocking poorer-PSU Zenith? There are a lot of assumptions here.

Or because your natural inclination is to dismiss the reclocking effect entirely?

Or because you still believe the sonic improvements heard by others are added noise giving the illusion of more detail despite assertions from happy Mutec owners that the sound is actually smoother?

Or because you understandably are more focused on noise than many other factors?

Not multiple choice! I'm merely suggesting that old chestnut of expectation bias.

[TheFlash 3,533]

2 hours ago, PuritéAudio said:

Have they!

Keith

Keith, saviour of the universe, you've stumbled into the wrong thread again.

[PuritéAudio 1,374]

In a well engineered dac, neither power supply nor reclocker will make the slightest difference.

Sorry.

Keith

[Nopiano 2,453]

19 minutes ago, PuritéAudio said:

In a well engineered dac, neither power supply nor reclocker will make the slightest difference....

...say manufacturers who don’t make advanced power supplies nor reclocking devices.  Just as manufacturers of those devices understandably say that any device can be improved with their product!   Not much help to the poor consumer though!

[tuga 1,885]

38 minutes ago, TheFlash said:

If we are to accept Mr Watts' view of the world and the place his designs hold in it, the Phoenix-augmented DAVE would sound worse than the Phoneix-free DAVE.

We don't know if this isn't true. Just because Fourlegs prefers the Phoenix-augmented DAVE that doesn't mean you or I would.

This is why I jocked about his use of increase (make greater in size, amount, or degree) instead of improve (make better) earlier in the thread. In my view the former is a matter of taste of taste and thus listener dependent, the latter is the result of better technical performance.

[PuritéAudio 1,374]

4 minutes ago, Nopiano said:

...say manufacturers who don’t make advanced power supplies nor reclocking devices.  Just as manufacturers of those devices understandably say that any device can be improved with their product!   Not much help to the poor consumer though!

If either device rendered a improvement it would be evident in the measurements taken at the output of the dac.

A dac has to be heroically poorly designed to exhibit power supply noise at the output, as to ‘reclockers’ the clock is ‘refreshed/regenerated/reclocked by the PLL which sits right next to the D/A, it is the implementation of this PLL which defines the ‘goodness’ of the implementation.

Manufacturers see an opportunity and manufacture a component to cure a non-existent problem that is capitalism.

Keith

[tuga 1,885]

41 minutes ago, TheFlash said:

Why might you be so inclined?

Because of something specific to the Chord DAC internal clocks rendering external reclocking redundant? If we are to accept Mr Watts' view of the world and the place his designs hold in it, the Phoenix-augmented DAVE would sound worse than the Phoneix-free DAVE. I presume that while the Phoenix reclocks, the Zenith does not. So you're getting sonic benefits from the Phoenix power supply outweighing the sonic hit of the reclocking process, and comparing that with the non-reclocking poorer-PSU Zenith? There are a lot of assumptions here.

Or because your natural inclination is to dismiss the reclocking effect entirely?

Or because you still believe the sonic improvements heard by others are added noise giving the illusion of more detail despite assertions from happy Mutec owners that the sound is actually smoother?

Or because you understandably are more focused on noise than many other factors?

Not multiple choice! I'm merely suggesting that old chestnut of expectation bias.

Is Foulegs talking about using reclockers with S/PDIF?

If so, with which DAC? If you look at Sterephile's measurements you'll see that the jitter performance of the Dave on the Toslink input is just about stellar. I would expect the S/PDIF input to be identical and the USB input to be even better.

But there are (mostly older) DACs that could potentially benefit from the insertion of the Mutec in the S/PDIF signal path.

[Fourlegs 2,240]

6 hours ago, tuga said:

Is Foulegs talking about using reclockers with S/PDIF? If so, with which DAC?

No. The Phoenix is a usb only reclocker. I tried it between my Innuos Zenith Mk2 SE (usb only) and the MScaler + Dave. I was hugely impressed by the better sound quality.

6 hours ago, tuga said:

If you look at Sterephile's measurements you'll see that the jitter performance of the Dave on the Toslink input is just about stellar. I would expect the S/PDIF input to be identical and the USB input to be even better.

and there is the conundrum. According to what you say, you are in the camp that says the Phoenix should not make a difference. 
 

But to take the Phoenix out of the equation, are you also of the persuasion that better streamers do not make a difference? You see, the Zenith Mk2 SE + Phoenix streamer combination is in reality just part of what is inside the Statement streamer. No one gets excited about the Statement or thinks that it cannot improve the sound. (Wait, I can think of one person but we discount him.)

Edited November 18, 2020 by Fourlegs

[Heckyman 125]

I would be very surprised if the Mutec did not improve Bluesound -> Dave.

OTOH, I would be quite surprised if the Mutec did improve Statement -> Dave. 

[Nativebon 300]

Not sure if this review has been posted. 

https://mutec-net.com/downloads/manuals/MUTEC_MC-3plusUSB_-_HFN.pdf

[tuga 1,885]

3 hours ago, Fourlegs said:

No. The Phoenix is a usb only reclocker. I tried it between my Innuos Zenith Mk2 SE (usb only) and the MScaler + Dave. I was hugely impressed by the better sound quality.

and there is the conundrum. According to what you say, you are in the camp that says the Phoenix should not make a difference.

Not really. I am in the camp that the Phoenix should not make a difference as a reclocker. But as I've shown with Archimago's measurements of USB hubs it could make a difference by reducing the noise that travels down the USB interface.

Can the reclocking be disabled in the Phoenix to test my hypothesis?

Also, you could compare it to one of those USB hubs that measures well, perhaps used in combination with a Y-cable that splits the 5v and allows you to use an external LPSU (like the one I have).

.

As a side note, I think I remember reading reports that the UpTone Audio Regen does not produce any audible (noise) improvement in Chord "desktop" DACs but it's been some time since I read anything Regen-related so I could be mistaking it for some other manufacturer.