TheFlash

My digital world: reclocking experiences

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Super Dealer
2 minutes ago, tuga said:

1.  Not really. I am in the camp that the Phoenix should not make a difference as a reclocker. But as I've shown with Archimago's measurements of USB hubs it could make a difference by reducing the noise that travels down the USB interface.

2. Can the reclocking be disabled in the Phoenix to test my hypothesis?

3. Also, you could compare it to one of those USB hubs that measures well, perhaps used in combination with a Y-cable that splits the 5v and allows you to use an external LPSU (like the one I have).

.

4. As a side note, I think I remember reading reports that the UpTone Audio Regen does not produce any audible (noise) improvement in Chord "desktop" DACs but it's been some time since I read anything Regen-related so I could be mistaking it for some other manufacturer.

1. I’m in the camp where I hear a difference. If you want to debate whether it is the reclocking or better power supply or both then I will have to refer you to the quote from Nuno at Innuos and which I posted earlier. Any further technical questions are best emailed to him direct. As it happens I did not buy the Phoenix but instead bought the Statement which already has all what the Phoenix does plus more. 

2. No.

3. No. I don’t have the Phoenix anymore and neither do I have any of those hubs  

4. Not tried one I’m afraid. 
It could be that Nigel @TheFlash is up for more playing with his Mutec in my Chord  system but I doubt it because it is a right off faff for him to get them out of his system and in any case he is happy with what they do in his system and I’m not in the market to buy a Mutec so there is little motive for either of us. 

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Super Wammer
11 hours ago, PuritéAudio said:

Manufacturers see an opportunity and manufacture a component to cure a non-existent problem that is capitalism.

I agree that’s evident throughout modern marketing and sales practices.   A great example is all the mis-sold insurance policies that cover things that don’t need insuring, are already covered in another way, or rarely result in claims.  

However, as audio and Hifi is such a discretionary area of spending, I’m more disposed to think that most of these components can’t be fooling people in their thousands, so maybe there’s something in them after all.  But I appreciate that if I were in the trade as you are, I might be more sceptical, and more importantly perhaps would be able to try them for myself.  

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Moderator
4 minutes ago, Nopiano said:

However, as audio and Hifi is such a discretionary area of spending, I’m more disposed to think that most of these components can’t be fooling people in their thousands, so maybe there’s something in them after all. 

Discretionary spending is exactly the area where people are most likely to be fooled IMHO. For example, fashion, cosmetics, ... etc. If your life depended on it, I suspect you would be far more discerning when it came to figuring out whether a given HiFi product was actually going to live up to the marketing hype.

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10 minutes ago, Nopiano said:

I agree that’s evident throughout modern marketing and sales practices.   A great example is all the mis-sold insurance policies that cover things that don’t need insuring, are already covered in another way, or rarely result in claims.  

However, as audio and Hifi is such a discretionary area of spending, I’m more disposed to think that most of these components can’t be fooling people in their thousands, so maybe there’s something in them after all.  But I appreciate that if I were in the trade as you are, I might be more sceptical, and more importantly perhaps would be able to try them for myself.  

A very sensible post 

But the way I think innous never made all these totally over the top expensive reclockers etc in the beginning. Imo they saw that audiophile people would spend £1000s on these type of things and went for it. How much does the phoenix reclocker cost to build? I mean how much do the parts cost? Someone is getting rich and it's not the consumer

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Super Wammer
1 minute ago, Tony_J said:

Discretionary spending is exactly the area where people are most likely to be fooled IMHO. For example, fashion, cosmetics, ... etc. If your life depended on it, I suspect you would be far more discerning when it came to figuring out whether a given HiFi product was actually going to live up to the marketing hype.

Well, I can’t disagree with that.  Perhaps I should add the point I missed above is that Mutec isn’t a foo cable company, but competing for hard-earned studio money, so I’m more inclined to think they are offering a robust and meaningful product.  However, maybe Hifi types have hijacked it for less convincing reasons?  The Hifi News report linked above shows it yields obvious improvements in standard DACs but rather less in the high end Devialet.  

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56 minutes ago, Nopiano said:

Well, I can’t disagree with that.  Perhaps I should add the point I missed above is that Mutec isn’t a foo cable company, but competing for hard-earned studio money, so I’m more inclined to think they are offering a robust and meaningful product.  However, maybe Hifi types have hijacked it for less convincing reasons?  The Hifi News report linked above shows it yields obvious improvements in standard DACs but rather less in the high end Devialet.  

One should add that the purpose of a Master word-clock is not to reclock the S/PDIF signal going from a single digital source into a single DAC but to act as a reference for studio systems which consist of dozens of ADCs and DACs, and also for synchronising video and audio.

This doesn't mean that when used with a DAC which is not particularly effective at removing jitter from its S/PDIF input Mutec's product won't have a positive impact in performance and thus "increase" sound quality.

Edited by tuga
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Super Dealer
1 hour ago, Nopiano said:

Well, I can’t disagree with that.  Perhaps I should add the point I missed above is that Mutec isn’t a foo cable company, but competing for hard-earned studio money, so I’m more inclined to think they are offering a robust and meaningful product.  However, maybe Hifi types have hijacked it for less convincing reasons?  The Hifi News report linked above shows it yields obvious improvements in standard DACs but rather less in the high end Devialet.  

Hi-fi News measured the digital outputs ,comparing USB to USB converted to s/pdif by the Mutec, noting a 5dB improvement but at -140dB remember these are digital signals it would have been more valid to measure the analogue signal at the dacs output.

It is possible I suppose that a really poor dac design ‘might’ benefit but who would choose to use sush an intrinsically poor design in the first place?

Keith

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Sorry, I just don't get the capitalist exploitation angle, it's so tiresome to read the same posts over and over.

You could use the same argument for the entire hi-fi industry being a waste of money.

No one needs more than a properly designed smart speaker and a decent car stereo to enjoy great music. 

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Moderator
1 minute ago, Heckyman said:

Sorry, I just don't get the capitalist exploitation angle, it's so tiresome to read the same posts over and over.

You could use the same argument for the entire hi-fi industry being a waste of money.

No one needs more than a properly designed smart speaker and a decent car stereo to enjoy great music. 

Enjoy listening to music?

Good God, anyone would think that was the point of this hifi stuff.

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Super Wammer

I think Tuga has clearly set out that this unit was never designed or meant for home Hi Fi systems it was made and designed to be used in the studio environment were the things it has to do it does very well according to those who use it. Using it for a single digital input may well make a difference and that difference may well be an improvement in a paticualr system or not in a different system . Why it is making a difference is most likely dependent on the paticular chain of equipment it is placed in to there could be ground issues , jitter issues , power supply issues anything that could be influencing the signal at each end . For some it most obviously in their systems works and sounds better which is all we can ask it to do . For others it may not work so all they need to do is pass .

Now has anyone got a non USB Mutec 3 for sale ?

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1 hour ago, PuritéAudio said:

Hi-fi News measured the digital outputs ,comparing USB to USB converted to s/pdif by the Mutec, noting a 5dB improvement but at -140dB remember these are digital signals it would have been more valid to measure the analogue signal at the dacs output.

It is possible I suppose that a really poor dac design ‘might’ benefit but who would choose to use sush an intrinsically poor design in the first place?

Keith

Just like some products you have sold.

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17 minutes ago, StingRay said:

Just like some products you have sold.

Just put him on ignore, he knows not what he's preaching. Either he didn't read the Lab Report or has no idea what he's talking about (I'll let you figure that out for yourself).

For one HFN isn't even measuring the digital ouputs... :doh:

Oppo’s fine BDP-105D universal player/DAC [HFN Jan ’13] is illustrative, demonstrating a ~5dB reduction in noise/ uncorrelated jitter and 30psec of correlated jitter with the MC-3+ inserted between PC [USB-Mutec-S/PDIF, red trace Graph 2] and onboard DAC [USB direct, black trace].

Edited by tuga

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Super Wammer
4 hours ago, Bokke said:

A very sensible post 

But the way I think innous never made all these totally over the top expensive reclockers etc in the beginning. Imo they saw that audiophile people would spend £1000s on these type of things and went for it. How much does the phoenix reclocker cost to build? I mean how much do the parts cost? Someone is getting rich and it's not the consumer

Those two embedded questions are very different. There is a lot more to build cost than parts - like labour, even if it is one’s own- and then there are marketing costs on top and then if you’re lucky profit margins.

There is also more to value (to the purchaser) than cost. If my 10p cost thing is easily worth £1 to you because it makes your life easier or you’d spend £2 on someone else’s thing, are we going to discuss parts costs? I expect not as both our needs are being met and we’re adults.

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Super Dealer
1 hour ago, tuga said:

Just put him on ignore, he knows not what he's preaching. Either he didn't read the Lab Report or has no idea what he's talking about (I'll let you figure that out for yourself).

For one HFN isn't even measuring the digital ouputs... :doh:

Oppo’s fine BDP-105D universal player/DAC [HFN Jan ’13] is illustrative, demonstrating a ~5dB reduction in noise/ uncorrelated jitter and 30psec of correlated jitter with the MC-3+ inserted between PC [USB-Mutec-S/PDIF, red trace Graph 2] and onboard DAC [USB direct, black trace].

Perhaps you need to look at those measurements again, he is measuring the s/pdif and usb output, both of which are in the digital domain.

Keith

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Super Dealer
54 minutes ago, TheFlash said:

Those two embedded questions are very different. There is a lot more to build cost than parts - like labour, even if it is one’s own- and then there are marketing costs on top and then if you’re lucky profit margins.

There is also more to value (to the purchaser) than cost. If my 10p cost thing is easily worth £1 to you because it makes your life easier or you’d spend £2 on someone else’s thing, are we going to discuss parts costs? I expect not as both our needs are being met and we’re adults.

Just to add to that. The Phoenix is I think £2250 inc vat. ie £1875 plus vat. The wholesale discount on hifi gear is often around 40% so the manufacturer is selling it to the dealer at perhaps £1125, maybe less. So at least half of the price paid by the punter has nothing at all to do with manufacturing costs. 

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