My digital world: reclocking experiences

[tuga 2,169]

4 minutes ago, rabski said:

Not for SPDIF though Ric. The rough rule of thumb is that the ideal length for SPDIF coax is around 1.5m to minimise potential reflection issues.

I remember reading about it on Positive Feedback many years ago. The exception that makes the rule perhaps.

I haven't used S/PDIF for some 10 years.

[bencat 2,653]

An answer from the cloth eared and poor unrevealing system members corner here . I think at last count for an spdif cable I have tried 64 different makes . None were that exotic and none cost over £100 . In all cases the expensive ones were loaned as I would not pay that much of my own money to just trial a cable.

My of course useless views (being cloth eared and having a poor system) is that digital cables can make a difference but only up to a point . If you can get a real 75 Ohm signal including the sockets and plugs used (which means BNC) or get correctly constucted 110 ohm AES/EBU cables using XLR then you will be getting the best signal and transfer possible . When these criteria have been met I have consistently been unable to notice any difference at all between cables and in fact for a much smaller sample number between BNC and XLR . All the cables sounded indentical . The only time i did notice differences is when I used RCA Phono leads which are not always 75 plugs and sockets so even with a cable that is carefully made to the correct 75  ohm target the signal may not be 75 ohm due to the plugs and sockets. I do not know if it is just this causing the differences in sound but only using these types of cable have been able to hear a difference and even then i have to admit it was not that huge .

You will find this sort of cable debate in lots of stand alone threads and you are welcome to start your own regarding this but this thread is about reclocking , in case your Mother never told you calling anyone who does not follow your view exactly Cloth Eared and then saying they have poor choice of system is not exactly polite or even nice . Consider would I say this to anyone face to face ? If not then perhaps review before writing it as it will always seem worse when read than spoken.

[Fourlegs 2,376]

2 hours ago, rabski said:

Not for SPDIF though Ric. The rough rule of thumb is that the ideal length for SPDIF coax is around 1.5m to minimise potential reflection issues.

Indeed, when Rob Watts and I swopped cables of three different lengths of BNC (SPDIF) cable we could both hear a difference between 0.5m, 1m and 2m lengths of the same cables. We did not try any longer than 2m. In each case the better sounding cable (smoother, less harsh) was always the longer cable but it was a marginal thing and a few ferrites on the shorter cables outweighed the advantages of the longer cable. 

[PuritéAudio 1,378]

2 minutes ago, Fourlegs said:

Indeed, when Rob Watts and I swopped cables of three different lengths of BNC (SPDIF) cable we could both hear a difference between 0.5m, 1m and 2m lengths of the same cables. We did not try any longer than 2m. In each case the better sounding cable (smoother, less harsh) was always the longer cable but it was a marginal thing and a few ferrites on the shorter cables outweighed the advantages of the longer cable. 

Unsighted of course?

Keith

[rabski 8,941]

7 minutes ago, PuritéAudio said:

Unsighted of course?

Keith

Unnecessary, of course.

The issue with shorter digital coax cables has a sound scientific basis.

[Lord J 39]

51 minutes ago, bencat said:

An answer from the cloth eared and poor unrevealing system members corner here . I think at last count for an spdif cable I have tried 64 different makes . None were that exotic and none cost over £100 . In all cases the expensive ones were loaned as I would not pay that much of my own money to just trial a cable.

My of course useless views (being cloth eared and having a poor system) is that digital cables can make a difference but only up to a point . If you can get a real 75 Ohm signal including the sockets and plugs used (which means BNC) or get correctly constucted 110 ohm AES/EBU cables using XLR then you will be getting the best signal and transfer possible . When these criteria have been met I have consistently been unable to notice any difference at all between cables and in fact for a much smaller sample number between BNC and XLR . All the cables sounded indentical . The only time i did notice differences is when I used RCA Phono leads which are not always 75 plugs and sockets so even with a cable that is carefully made to the correct 75  ohm target the signal may not be 75 ohm due to the plugs and sockets. I do not know if it is just this causing the differences in sound but only using these types of cable have been able to hear a difference and even then i have to admit it was not that huge .

You will find this sort of cable debate in lots of stand alone threads and you are welcome to start your own regarding this but this thread is about reclocking , in case your Mother never told you calling anyone who does not follow your view exactly Cloth Eared and then saying they have poor choice of system is not exactly polite or even nice . Consider would I say this to anyone face to face ? If not then perhaps review before writing it as it will always seem worse when read than spoken.

Please, I would take it back - however I don’t believe I’ve had the pleasure, Bencat?

I will repeat this. I have no intention of offending anyone. On this site or any other or if we were standing side by side.

I honestly cannot see anything that I’ve written directed at any one individual - offensive or otherwise. This of course is the problem of texting and emails.

This is a discussion forum, so why on earth can one not say or suggest that if a person cannot hear clearly audible differences - that they have heard - there may be an issue or problem with the other person’s equipment or hearing?

Can the offence not work the other way?

Should I not be offended?
That I’m imagining sounds that aren’t there and I’ve been fooled and hoodwinked by slippery marketeers and hokum science?  That I should hang my head in shame at spouting nonsense of improved sound in a HiFi forum?

I think not.

I haven’t listen to 64 digital cables, non of which exceeded £100 and come the stunning conclusion that there wasn’t much of a difference.

My experience is rather different but maybe I won’t share them anymore as they seem to offend.

Regards

 

[PuritéAudio 1,378]

20 minutes ago, rabski said:

Unnecessary, of course.

The issue with shorter digital coax cables has a sound scientific basis.

Completely necessary of course to remove sighted bias, audibility is always the question.

Keith

[rabski 8,941]

It isn't the suggestion that's offensive at all.

However, many of us who have been playing with audio equipment for many a long year have many times heard the phrase 'your ears aren't good enough or your system isn't resolving enough'. With some serious experimentation, many of us mave discovered that actually our ears are pretty good and our systems are capable of resolving a great deal of micro-detail, yet the massive differences still don't seem to be there.

From my experience, I have heard occasional small differences between digital SPDIF cables, including some extremely costsly ones. Yet these differences have not been as expected. As seems to case with other cables, on analysis and comprehensive listening, some expensive cables make a difference, but actually it is evident they have been engineered to do so and the difference does not always equate to an improvement. Just a difference.

[rabski 8,941]

Just now, PuritéAudio said:

Completely necessary of course to remove sighted bias, audibility is always the question.

Keith

No. It isn't Keith. It really isn't.

Science tells us that a 1000 volt electric shock is almost certain to be fatal if it carries enough current, whereas as 5 volt shock will not usually even be felt. I feel no need to do an unsighted test to see whether that remains true.

[PuritéAudio 1,378]

I am surprised that someone with a scientific background refuses to acknowledge the importance of cognitive bias.

Perhaps read up.

Keith

[Tony_J 5,570]

Perhaps that's a reflection of his first hand experience of just how hard it is to take such biases out if the equation - and no, your rather trivial approach to the problem doesn't do it.

[PuritéAudio 1,378]

It is trivially easy to remove the sighted bias you just can’t know which component you are listening to.

Keith

Edited November 23, 2020 by PuritéAudio

[awkwardbydesign 1,150]

2 hours ago, tuga said:

I remember reading about it on Positive Feedback many years ago. The exception that makes the rule perhaps.

I haven't used S/PDIF for some 10 years.

The phrase is "the exception that proves the rule"  prove meaning test*; the opposite to "makes the rule"!

*As in proving ground, for weapons, etc.  And the Italian verb, provare.  Generally misunderstood and misused.

[StingRay 1,867]

13 hours ago, Lord J said:

Oh, I’m not entirely sure who that comment is aimed at?

This is an open HiFi forum isn’t it?

My passion is music and HiFi is the conduit to it. I cannot see why that should be questioned?

I’m aware we are going off topic but a digital cable is pertinent to ones digital reclocking experience. 

Maybe I’m fortunate. I have had the opportunity to listen to many different cables, some very expensive. Some, have ended up in my system, some have not.

For the record, my digital cable exceeds  the price of the actual Node 2i, and by some margin. I tried an QED cable that I owned (£100ish) a Black Rhodium one(£250ish). The differences were minor to the point of nothing. 
For a few reasons, I do not wish to name my cable of choice, but what I will say is that it is over £500 and when I heard it I just had to have it. I had my partner verify that I wasn’t going mad and also some friends whom share the love of music. We all agreed. I’ve reached the point in my HiFi journey that it’s gone beyond sexy new boxes and to “What actually makes the biggest difference?”.

If anyone discounts ANYTHING due to a bias or what they may believe is true is kidding themselves. Which of course they are free to do.

I will be bold and state this.
Regarding cables. If you cannot hear the differences between a good Digital cable and an average one or the difference between a standard mains cable and a good one then you are either deaf/cloth eared or unfortunately your system is not revealing enough.

Now I think I’ve said quite enough.

Good night gentlemen  

So you did not hear a difference between QED and Black Rodium and yet you say anyone who does not hear differences between a good and an average cable must be cloth eared?

So what is this good cable you speak of? And what is this secret cable? How can we judge if it's any good if we don't know what it is?

Many expensive cables are the same cable as some cheap ones, there was a £150 cable that used cable that cost around £2 pm.

[rabski 8,941]

7 minutes ago, PuritéAudio said:

It is trivially easy to remove the sighted bias you just can’t know which component you are listening to.

Keith

No. It isn't.

Once again, one person testing and removing one bias proves absolutely nothing. You continue to argue this as if somehow repeating the same factually incorrect statement will magically endow it with a degree of validity.

For someone who tells other people to read up on cognitive bias, you make it abundantly clear that you obviously have not followed your own advice.

Perhaps you should consider how much framing bias is in your worldview: using a too-narrow approach and description of the situation or issue.