Affordable high-performance horn speakers?

[tuga 1,749]

1 minute ago, 2010*zuma said:

I remember this very well... I was quite  impressed he's definitely a very nice guy and was admiring his loudspeaker handy work... But when it came to his engineering turntable effort i thought poor old Joe had gotten out of his depth...talk about crude engineering bless him.. I couldn't look 👀.. 🥴.. 😇

I didn't watch that far...

[2010*zuma 187]

5 minutes ago, tuga said:

I didn't watch that far...

turns into nightmare on vinyl Street👹.... fast.... very fast.... bless him....he's a great bloke😇

[steve 57 282]

But what a system and room

And passive crossovers on the 4 ways... 

Edited October 30, 2020 by steve 57

[tuga 1,749]

37 minutes ago, 2010*zuma said:

I darent mention my (horn?) speakers on this thread either... 

You're very welcome to mention them in the "other" one:

[Non-Smoking Man 536]

On 29/10/2020 at 16:52, tuga said:

There are many factors that could trigger the trombone'ing effect: a compression driver that is not perfectly centered, the high-pass frequency was set too low for the pairing horn, the profile of the horn throat, etc.

High-performance horns are more difficult to get right. And they need more ways than a box speaker. They're complex, large and expensive.

What 'trombone'ing' effect is this Ric? Do you have a reference? I didnt see the word used by Angelo..

Jack

[Phobic 2,446]

On 30/10/2020 at 10:26, tuga said:

I didn't watch that far...

it's worth a watch, I quite enjoyed it thanks for linking. He's clearly barking mad but such a nice guy.

I like how his horn system is in spare house because it's so big!

[tuga 1,749]

10 hours ago, Non-Smoking Man said:

What 'trombone'ing' effect is this Ric? Do you have a reference? I didnt see the word used by Angelo..

Jack

I don't know how much credit you give to him but I remember Angelo from the time he was chased from Romy the Cat's GoodSoundClub blog.

I guess the best way to describe the trombone'ing effect is to think of the vibrating resonance typical of trombones or trumpets, and perhaps some form of cupped-hands colouration. Unlike instruments, whose goal is to produce music through sound, speakers are supposed to accurately reproduce the recorded signal that's being transduced by the driver and for that you need the best horn profile and a filter that adequately band-passes the operating range to a particular horn.

Edited November 2, 2020 by tuga

[Non-Smoking Man 536]

Ive never seen the term used in print and after your post I still dont know where to find it - that was the purpose of asking for a reference. Ive heard of the cupped hands analogy typical of megaphones and oldfashioned horns but 'tromboning' (it cant have an 'e' in it Tuga) is not a concept Ive heard of, nor an effect that I have heard in either my 5 way horn system nor Speedysteve's, nor the Monster Loony System, nor the Guy Sergeant/I_should_coco System (both in Coleman @Scalford).

In all those  cases, having heard all sorts of people's comments about them at our homes and, in the latter cases at the Show, nobody mentioned the word 'coloration' or anything connoting the concept (to answer Steve57's query).

As you rightly say, and has been said before, if horns are done properly, 'cupped hands' effects and the like are a thing of the past.

Jack

Edited November 2, 2020 by Non-Smoking Man

[tuga 1,749]

22 minutes ago, Non-Smoking Man said:

Ive never seen the term used in print and after your post I still dont know where to find it - that was the purpose of asking for a reference. Ive heard of the cupped hands analogy typical of megaphones and oldfashioned horns but 'tromboning' (it cant have an 'e' in it Tuga) is not a concept Ive heard of, nor an effect that I have heard in either my 5 way horn system nor Speedysteve's, nor the Monster Loony System, nor the Guy Sergeant/I_should_coco System (both in Coleman @Scalford).

In all those  cases, having heard all sorts of people's comments about them at our homes and, in the latter cases at the Show, nobody mentioned the word 'coloration' or anything connoting the concept (to answer Steve57's query).

As you rightly say, and has been said before, if horns are done properly, 'cupped hands' effects and the like are a thing of the past.

Jack

One can call it "horn colouration" since technically both the trombone and the trumpet are also horns. It's a kind of colouration, or distortion, that you don't get with other types of speaker.

[tuga 1,749]

"Megaphonic colouration" is another good term...

This is from a piece by the well regarded horn designer Bruce Edgar (of Edgarhorns):

Why Horns?

(...)

A second problem with horn loudspeakers is that they are easily prone to resonant peaks in their response.

I have heard some horn tweeters that made me think that I was being drilled between the eyes.

Many horn midranges have a honky megaphone sound that comes from resonant peaks.

I have measured many old horn midranges with high resolution spectrum analyzers and have found them loaded with high Q spikes that give each horn speaker its own characteristic coloration.

(...)

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/manufacture/whyhorns.htm

Edited November 2, 2020 by tuga

[Non-Smoking Man 536]

A key word there used by Bruce Edgar is 'old'. I repeat a 'honky megaphonic sound'' was not reported in the high end multiway horn systems that I have heard and which are supposed to be what this thread of yours is focussing on.

I'm still waiting for where you found the word 'tromboning'...

Do you have any listening experience yourself of the high end horn systems which are the subject of this thread?

Jack

[tuga 1,749]

13 minutes ago, Non-Smoking Man said:

A key word there used by Bruce Edgar is 'old'. I repeat a 'honky megaphonic sound'' was not reported in the high end multiway horn systems that I have heard and which are supposed to be what this thread of yours is focussing on.

I'm still waiting for where you found the word 'tromboning'...

Do you have any listening experience yourself of the high end horn systems which are the subject of this thread?

Jack

Ok, I think I get it now.

You thought that I was "attacking" the sound any horn when I was merely describing the colouration typical of badly-designed or low-performance horns.

"Trombone'ing" is just an adjective, like "megaphonic". You can find it in any dictionary. Sorry but it seems as though you are implying that one cannot use the adjective one wishes even if it makes sense to describe something unless it has been used by a, what, guru or a VIP?

.

You can get 'honky megaphonic sound'' from old as well as new horns, multiway or not. F.e. those by Oswald Mills with their conical profile in even-numbered sections.

[Non-Smoking Man 536]

Im not implying anything - I merely ask for a reference for the term 'tromboneing'. Do not put words in my mouth.

And you havent answered my question about your listening experience with horns..

Jack NSM

[Non-Smoking Man 536]

Ive just googled 'tromboneing' - is it a word?

Its come back - 'do you mean tromboning'.

Your word is not even in the dictionary..

Edited November 2, 2020 by Non-Smoking Man

[Nopiano 2,424]

Horns are a knowledge gap for me, and most that I’ve heard haven’t appealed.  A notable exception was this model from Malvern Audio Research at the 2019 Bristol Show. The sign calls them Aria 1 floorstander. (The chap in the mirror is the owner, I think)

Here it says they cost £2500 and I thought they were terrific.   https://www.touchstone2c.co.uk/products/horns/aria-1/

 

Edited November 2, 2020 by Nopiano
PS. Just realised these don’t count as not 3-way. They still sounded good though!