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Will SO 2 not be further developed?


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Super Wammer
23 hours ago, Johannes said:

It would be nice if SO could contain objects such as sofas, chairs, cupboards, sideboards, carpets, etc. with material properties.

As for furniture, Linn indirectly address this in their documentation. Imagine the furniture as a partial wall, then ignore it.

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Super Wammer

There appear to be some misconceptions about how space optimisation works. This document can be helpful; https://docs.linn.co.uk/wiki/index.php/Linn_Account_Space_Optimisation#How_do_I_enter_my_open_plan_room.3F

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Thank you, for not measuring the window frame, I did not know yet, but it is logical.

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Super Wammer
8 minutes ago, Johannes said:

Thank you, for not measuring the window frame, I did not know yet, but it is logical.

Are you talking about ignoring the window frames as they are under 10 cm?

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Super Wammer

I see that it is addressed directly in the document:

How do I measure my room features?
When measuring room features only the feature itself, and not any trimmings, should be measured: for a door only the door panel should be measured, and not the door frame; for a window only the window pane should be measured, and not the casement. Any non-rectangular features, such as circular windows, should be modelled as a rectangular feature of equal area.
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10 hours ago, akamatsu said:

I see that it is addressed directly in the document:

How do I measure my room features?
When measuring room features only the feature itself, and not any trimmings, should be measured: for a door only the door panel should be measured, and not the door frame; for a window only the window pane should be measured, and not the casement. Any non-rectangular features, such as circular windows, should be modelled as a rectangular feature of equal area.

A lot seem to jumpstart to the sliders in SO and tweak till they drop or call it a day, but only a few read the manual. Admittedly I don’t know the document by heart, but if you follow the steps and additionally read the stuff on Linn docs me thinks it will get you there at least 80% of the way. If one can hear the missing 20% is a another debate.

If there should be an improvement to me made in SO, it should be the addition of sloped ceilings and a high frequency adjusters as sported in SOv1. In my case it works like a charm.

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Super Wammer

I'd like to see improvements to stability and calculation times - both are pretty poor.

I also think there needs to be a simplified wizard version of SO for people who don't want to go through the endless tweaking - I don't think personally enough people get as much out of SO as they could.

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With the greatest respect to all of the people on this Forum who avidly use the Linn S0 functions, in the "outside" world (i.e. outside this Forum) I suggest the use of the function is very limited. I recall from another similar thread a couple of weeks ago that only between 5% and 10% potential users ever even turn on the facility. And to the casual listener I suggest a high proportion of those do not get very far and only try the once. Whatever Linn and its supporters say, its not easy to use, and the sound "improvement" to the casual listener is negligible for the effort that has to be put in. To the "audiophile" (see other current thread) the hours of "fettling" might be great fun and show an improved/different sound I suggest this is perhaps only 1% of potential SO users. I guess Linn knows this and I suspect they will not be ploughing zillions into SO3, its got far greater priorities at present.

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Super Wammer
2 hours ago, HIGHWAY61 said:

With the greatest respect to all of the people on this Forum who avidly use the Linn S0 functions, in the "outside" world (i.e. outside this Forum) I suggest the use of the function is very limited. I recall from another similar thread a couple of weeks ago that only between 5% and 10% potential users ever even turn on the facility. And to the casual listener I suggest a high proportion of those do not get very far and only try the once. Whatever Linn and its supporters say, its not easy to use, and the sound "improvement" to the casual listener is negligible for the effort that has to be put in. To the "audiophile" (see other current thread) the hours of "fettling" might be great fun and show an improved/different sound I suggest this is perhaps only 1% of potential SO users. I guess Linn knows this and I suspect they will not be ploughing zillions into SO3, its got far greater priorities at present.

I agree with much of this.  I recall the 5% was quite a while ago now, and obviously Linn can now discover usage as the v2 is an online service. Indeed, that might have been one reason for the change.  

Where I differ slightly is I thought it was mainly intended as a tool for dealers, as we need to remember Linn tries to sell as a lifestyle product, and requires dealers to instal, not just sell boxes.  So, once the dealer arrives to install the system chosen in Harrods, they find that somebody at home says “you can’t put those there!” and the speakers get shoved into the corners, or somewhere else far from ideal.  Then the dealer uses SO to dial out the boomy bass that would otherwise result, and the customer is happy.  The idea that SO is a fine tuning tool to enhance an already good system, is surely secondary at best?

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20 hours ago, uk030 said:

methinks you should probably put in that wall and door. If acoustics are totally off, there's little that SO can do.

I agree but unfortunately swmbo won't let me board up the stairwell too.

19 hours ago, Johannes said:

Is the whole wall to the kitchen gone or just the door out?

There is a large hole in one of the walls too.

I have been making small improvements to my system for the past 3 years by throwing money at it and even moving the door to the porch but I am now resigned to moving house.

I'm really looking forward to what SO can do in a more conventional room.

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4 hours ago, HIGHWAY61 said:

I recall from another similar thread a couple of weeks ago that only between 5% and 10% potential users ever even turn on the facility.

IIRC, that was a quote from @Paulssurround relating to Space Optimisation version 1, which was time consuming to set up correctly, and (I believe) therefore found little favour with dealers. Version 2, in many rooms, works much better "out of the box". I'd expect it to be more widely used, but we don't have any data.

4 hours ago, HIGHWAY61 said:

Whatever Linn and its supporters say, its not easy to use, and the sound "improvement" to the casual listener is negligible for the effort that has to be put in.

There again, it depends what version you are referring to, and what you mean by "easy". It's not "press a button and forget", that's true. At the same time, I have friends (not members of this forum) who found that they couldn't get decent results with SO version 1, but are happy with both the user interface and results achieved with the very different version 2.

With my own primary system, I was fortunate enough to have Paulsurround  come and tune my profile when version 1 was current, and that was a clear demonstration of the results that the technology could achieve. I left that profile alone for over two years (including after an upgrade to Katalyst). Then, encouraged by Paul among others, I decided to try my hand with SO version 2. My listening room has eleven wall surfaces, a stepped and partially sloping ceiling, four windows and two glazed doors. Despite this complexity, the whole process, the most demanding part of which was the physical measurement rather than the interaction with the software, took me less than half a day (and I'm inexperienced and therefore slow). I found that, if you can 'model' your room accurately (down to 1 cm, and specifying building materials correctly), very little further adjustment seems to be required, and that involves the use of a single slider only - a far cry from version 1, where, almost invariably, more than one mode filter needed adjustment.

The results I am now getting from this implementation of SO version 2 equal or better (in terms of musical enjoyment) the earlier version 1 profile created by Paul, and have more than repaid my effort. I'm neither a techie nor a tweaker, and my profile is going to remain as it is. All in all, my experience, and that of others I know, belies your statement, which, I note, is not supported by any specific evidence.

David

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I never expected, or was trying to decry anyone's efforts with LINN SO (whatever version). I was trying to gently point out that 95% of people who have SO are neither going to have the opportunity for an expert to visit them and aid them in the set-up, or want to spend "half a day" measuring their house and input data. Do not shoot the messenger, I am only pointing out why SO 3 ? may not on the top of the LINN priority list. I know its totally unacceptable to make any form of criticism of any LINN product ever made on this Forum, but LINN are selling to a far wider consumer base than us on here.

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I keep in contact by phone, email and video chats with a lot of Linn owners that I have visited in the past to do Space Optimisation v1

Virtually everyone is using Space Optimisation v2 now, with a few exceptions preferring SOv1. Adoption rate seems to be quite high, and there is no one in my circle that is not using SO. 

I have also spent a lot of time guiding more than a dozen people through the process of doing SOv2 using FaceTime, WhatsApp or Skype, with good results. 

Linn has made a concerted effort to train all Linn dealers on SO as well as setting up Linn equipment, sending people like Gordon Inch to the dealers to train the employees

I think that Linn see SO as an advantage over their competitors, that allows the possibility of better sound quality over their competitors, and a significant feature of Linn streamers over other brands.

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Super Wammer

I personally think it's a bad idea to depend on dealers to be the ones who use SO, it must be targeted at owners if for no other reason than the 2nd hand market. An easy to use SO solution will mean that Linn resale value is kept higher than it would be otherwise, this in turn helps sales as people have more confidence in resale value down the road.

Also people & dealers don't want to have to support changes to SO whenever an owner makes changes to their room or moves home, it's not a great experience!

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2 hours ago, Phobic said:

I personally think it's a bad idea to depend on dealers to be the ones who use SO, it must be targeted at owners if for no other reason than the 2nd hand market. An easy to use SO solution will mean that Linn resale value is kept higher than it would be otherwise, this in turn helps sales as people have more confidence in resale value down the road.

Also people & dealers don't want to have to support changes to SO whenever an owner makes changes to their room or moves home, it's not a great experience!

The dealer is kind of central in the whole Linn deal and a needed specialist in some SO (non-audiophile/tweaker) cases. I don’t think SO has real value on the S/H market on itself other then people in search of acoustics modeling software solution. Also; SQ software is something of the last 5 years or so in audiophile universe and still not quite hip IMHO. 
 

Also keep in mind that Linn had a somewhat similar trick up it’s sleeve with the attenuators on the aktiv card of yesteryear. Not as sophisticated but addressing the same problem. This solution made folks even more dealer depended I guess since adjusting the aktiv cards seems like a black art (all by ear) surrounded in tune-dem voodoo.

My point being that a addressing EQ at home by Linn is nothing new in their case and that the dealer always played a big part. 
 

SO algorithms are the voodoo now and solved a big first world problem in my room. I’m talking the difference of keeping the speakers or throwing them of the 10-story balcony out of frustration. 
 

I get your point about the dealer involvement when a customer moves or shuffles his system, there will a difference I think when the system is big bucks Akurate or Klimax level, my best guess would be that the dealer would be happy to help. On the owner part, what is not to like? A flexibel solution which does not limit your set up to a certain wall or place after a move or redecorating.

Just open your Linn-account, Get a tape measure and a beer when you walk past the fridge. RTFM and run the show.

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