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Mini DSP clarification

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Hmmm I wonder if feeding one of these direct to self powered speakers (with digital inputs) would be good? 

Bypassing the need for a dac. 

On the way to the speakers you could also try re-clockIng the signal (to see if there is an audible benefit) 

Think I wonder about is if there would be signal quality issues with DIGITAL volume control prior to the speakers? 

How would a speakers AES digital input cope with say 1/8th level?

When I get some digital input speakers I think I will try it one of these out. 

It would mean using Volumio as a streamer - has anyone experience controlling that remotely via an apple device? 

Thanks 

Edited by ProJules

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3 minutes ago, ProJules said:

Hmmm I wonder if feeding one of these direct to self powered speakers (with digital inputs) would be good? 

It's my long term plan to at least try this, which I'd expect should work well. I've seen someone post about using a NAD C658 directly into ATC SCM40 actives and this is a Dirac Live capable unit similar to my SHD in many ways (I'd say there are pros and cons of each).

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Is gree it's worth trying. 

I can't find much online about the streamer capabilities. Would I just look up Volumio? 

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2 minutes ago, ProJules said:

Is gree it's worth trying. 

I can't find much online about the streamer capabilities. Would I just look up Volumio? 

What are you trying to find out? I stream using Volumio on my SHD. It's basic. The version used is bespoke to miniDSP so it's not the same as the most up to date version you'd find if you Googled.

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Super Wammer
14 hours ago, ProJules said:

Hmmm I wonder if feeding one of these direct to self powered speakers (with digital inputs) would be good? 

Bypassing the need for a dac. 

On the way to the speakers you could also try re-clockIng the signal (to see if there is an audible benefit) 

Think I wonder about is if there would be signal quality issues with DIGITAL volume control prior to the speakers? 

How would a speakers AES digital input cope with say 1/8th level?

I'm running something similar with a direct aes feed into Dutch & Dutch 8cs with the volume controlled digitally at source in JRiver. Super simple setup with the only analogue gain stage inside the speaker. Theoretically digital volume should be superior to analogue.

In reality I couldn't tell much difference between the aes digital and an analogue feed from the antelope audio platinum. Using digital it does mean than the dac/pre amp can be replaced with a digital interface or a wholly digital unit like a minidsp. Working well for me and is going to lead to a large box clear out

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Super Wammer

Oh and back to the original post and a shameless plug - yes I have jamsters minidsp OpenDRC-Di for sale which is digital in and out.

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On 28/12/2020 at 11:17, MartinC said:

The optimal configuration would, IMHO, be to replace the Benchmark with a miniDSP SHD. It is not possible to optimally integrate your sub without making a change like this. I'd suggest exploring if you might be able to get an SHD to demo.

A less optimal setup might be to use a DDRC-22D feeding your DAC to allow Dirac Live to make the best of what you have, although whether this would work for you would depend if it has the inputs you would need. The reason this would be inferior would be two-fold:

  1. If as is typical your main speakers are closer to you than your sub, then you would ideally like to delay the signal sent to your main speakers so that it arrives with that from your sub. You can do this with an SHD but not a DDRC-22D.
  2. An SHD would allow you to apply crossover filters to your main speakers as well as your sub, to control where this crossover is, allowing it to be set higher than what the natural roll-off of your main speakers would allow for. This gives you more freedom to gain more benefit from your sub. 

Thank you for reply Martin.  I wasn’t really wanting to replace DAC/pre as I do like the Benchmark sound character very much, but I understand what you are saying.  The SHD as a pre/dsp combo is not something i had considered. It is also more costly and I have no use for Volumio (although I could probably integrate LMS..)

Anyone here with experience Of SHD as a pre amp?

Improving Overall room EQ is my aim - I guess sub integration is a subset of that goal.

The DDRC22d is what I was contemplating.   My Velodyne SPLr Is quite well integrated with speakers and already uses Build in mic/sound  sweep/phase function.  It is also equidistant to listening position as are the speakers.  I have manually adjusted the 60-80hz rolloff on 110s and Sub, but that is a seat of pants thing.  

You second point got me thinking - As my main speakers already have fully active crossovers, would SHD override these? Ie the room mic measures the whole output, then  you apply filters to the miniDSP box that go into pre/dac>active speakers>active sub.  Or does one disaggregate these by virtue of setting up what are effectively New SW virtual crossovers?

There is a lot to think about before you even start measuring and applying Dirac.   It’s shame there is not a home-service start up for noobs. Apologies for what may appear to be daft questions.  It’s quite a bit to get head around.

Thanks for inputs.  

I should take this to the miniDSP thread, MODS feel  free to move.

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3 hours ago, El Seano said:

I'm running something similar with a direct aes feed into Dutch & Dutch 8cs with the volume controlled digitally at source in JRiver. Super simple setup with the only analogue gain stage inside the speaker. Theoretically digital volume should be superior to analogue.

In reality I couldn't tell much difference between the aes digital and an analogue feed from the antelope audio platinum. Using digital it does mean than the dac/pre amp can be replaced with a digital interface or a wholly digital unit like a minidsp. Working well for me and is going to lead to a large box clear out

This is terrific Intel. Much appreciated!

Thanks 

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Is anyone here using the MiniDSP streamer function? (It's Volumio right?)

If so how is that going?

How is the remote (phone tablet) control of Qobuz or Tidal? (I don't have any files)

Thanks

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20 minutes ago, Chumpchops said:

You second point got me thinking - As my main speakers already have fully active crossovers, would SHD override these? Ie the room mic measures the whole output, then  you apply filters to the miniDSP box that go into pre/dac>active speakers>active sub.  Or does one disaggregate these by virtue of setting up what are effectively New SW virtual crossovers?

The SHD would allow you to define a (new) crossover to control where the main speakers cross over to the sub. I suspect at the moment the sub is set to augment the existing bass of the main speakers, without changing their natural rolloff at the bottom end, which isn't necessarily ideal; you could set the crossover in the SHD to force a steeper rolloff in the main speakers, and choose the crossover point to better integrate the sub's output. You would set the low pass filter on the sub to its highest frequency setting so that it has minimal/no effect once the SHD crossover is operating.

The existing active crossovers in the main speakers would stay as they are, but you could use the Dirac functionality of the SHD to measure the overall performance of the main/sub combination (with the new crossover) and apply what are effectively room correction filters to fix the overall performance of the combo. 

You can think of the SHD (and the DDRC-24) as 2 boxes connected in series; the first is a room correction box that uses Dirac-created filters, and the second is a 2 X input, 4 X output digital crossover (that also supports user-defined EQ filters). So the "workflow" involves first setting up the crossover between your mains and sub, and adjusting that for best performance (choose the crossover point, adjust levels between mains and sub, add any EQ filters that may be needed to fix gross lumps & bumps in the FR curve, all probably with the help of REW or similar) and second, running a Dirac sweep to measure the in-room performance and create a filter set that best matches your desired target FR curve. 

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27 minutes ago, Chumpchops said:

Thank you for reply Martin.  I wasn’t really wanting to replace DAC/pre as I do like the Benchmark sound character very much, but I understand what you are saying.  The SHD as a pre/dsp combo is not something i had considered. It is also more costly and I have no use for Volumio (although I could probably integrate LMS..)

I really wasn't thinking that you would want to replace your Benchmark but you asked what I thought was optimal :).

27 minutes ago, Chumpchops said:

Anyone here with experience Of SHD as a pre amp?

Me. And I think at least two other forum members. Everything other than movie audio is digital though so I can't meaningfully comment on use with a turntable but I'm happy for what I do. More importantly I don't have another viable option if I want to integrate my subwoofer in the way that I do, and the benefits of the latter outweigh possible benefits of a different preamp to me.

27 minutes ago, Chumpchops said:

Improving Overall room EQ is my aim - I guess sub integration is a subset of that goal.

The DDRC22d is what I was contemplating.   My Velodyne SPLr Is quite well integrated with speakers and already uses Build in mic/sound  sweep/phase function.  It is also equidistant to listening position as are the speakers.  I have manually adjusted the 60-80hz rolloff on 110s and Sub, but that is a seat of pants thing.  

Are you saying you can adjust the roll-off on your speakers? That's a handy feature to have if you do.

27 minutes ago, Chumpchops said:

You second point got me thinking - As my main speakers already have fully active crossovers, would SHD override these? Ie the room mic measures the whole output, then  you apply filters to the miniDSP box that go into pre/dac>active speakers>active sub.  Or does one disaggregate these by virtue of setting up what are effectively New SW virtual crossovers?

An SHD could be used optimise the crossover between subwoofer and main speakers, whereas the crossover you're talking about in your active speakers it between its two drivers. It does sound to me like the gains to be had from this in your particular setup may be fairly limited though so a DDRC-22D may well be a sensible option.

My only caveat would be to say that I suspect there's a very good chance that your current subwoofer location isn't optimal, although you may feel you don't have scope to change this. If you did then your apparent time alignment may not be so good...

To really know you'd need to be prepared to get a microphone and make some measurements.

27 minutes ago, Chumpchops said:

There is a lot to think about before you even start measuring and applying Dirac.   It’s shame there is not a home-service start up for noobs. Apologies for what may appear to be daft questions.  It’s quite a bit to get head around.

I've seen no daft questions! Also Dirac Live really is pretty user friendly. It's not 'plug & play' but I've yet to come across someone that's tried it and failed to get it to work. There are several people here who could help too.

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19 minutes ago, ProJules said:

Is anyone here using the MiniDSP streamer function? (It's Volumio right?)

If so how is that going?

How is the remote (phone tablet) control of Qobuz or Tidal? (I don't have any files)

Thanks

See my post earlier in this thread in case you missed it?

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18 minutes ago, Tony_J said:

The SHD would allow you to define a (new) crossover to control where the main speakers cross over to the sub. I suspect at the moment the sub is set to augment the existing bass of the main speakers, without changing their natural rolloff at the bottom end, which isn't necessarily ideal; you could set the crossover in the SHD to force a steeper rolloff in the main speakers, and choose the crossover point to better integrate the sub's output. You would set the low pass filter on the sub to its highest frequency setting so that it has minimal/no effect once the SHD crossover is operating.

As a real-world example I'm currently using 48 dB/octave crossover filters at 110 Hz between my sub and main speakers. This is far steeper than the natural roll-off of a speaker would be, or the low-pass filter typically applied by subwoofers. This crossover point is partly chosen to optimise phase (timing) matching between sub and speakers but the use of a higher crossover has advantages too. Essentially I'm allowing my sub to cover more of the frequency range that its good at and reducing the low frequency burden on my main speakers and power amp. This reduces distortion. 

You may already be doing something similar though @Chumpchops if I read your earlier post correctly?

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4 hours ago, MartinC said:

See my post earlier in this thread in case you missed it?

Ahh no I did miss that. Thanks. 

So in summary, for the usefulness of the SHD feature set, you tolerate Volumio's user interface shortcomings? 

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