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What Are The Biggest Challenges To Your Listening Room Setup?


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17 minutes ago, akamatsu said:

In the same conversation, the dealer also said that many people on the forum buy their Linn equipment used, and don't have access to a dealer as a result. This is unfortunate, as over the past 33 years, I've found the dealers to be the best source for information and expertise. I would recommend reaching out to a nearby dealer, and establishing a relationship. Dealers sell used equipment too.

Since I am an old Linn dealer. I have a lot of contact with Linn dealers and help them from time to time. 

Often people buy used Linn because they heard about it and it was cheap. But they don't buy music or without a dealer it won't make music for them.

2 minutes ago, TooManyCatweazles said:

I could not agree more, and already mentioned elsewhere, that I consider a good dealer a very important part of a Linn system. This is also a differentiator to most other brands. One of my biggest fears is, that my dealer might retire some day - he's of the same age than myself. What am I going to do then? It's not that there are no other dealers within reach. I have a HiFi dealer close by, and he carries Linn as well. When the Lingo 4 was launched, I took my partner and we went to the launch event. We left early, cause we did not like the atmosphere. To much 'audiophile chatter', a completely different kind of customers. We did not enjoy being there.

Yes, a new generation of good dealers will be difficult. What can you expect when the musical experience is based on mobile phone music and mp3?
In addition, this brand fetish, the industry would have to rebuild a lot here and also the music media.

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Before this gets further out of hand, perhaps we should provide advice and comment on ONLY those things we have first-hand experience with. So, if you have actual tried product X, please discuss; if y

My plan is to move the TV and speakers to the left, and through 90 degrees, so they are facing the piano, firing left-to-right as it were as per the photo. It's a big, blank wall with nothing but powe

I think acoustic panelling is very interesting and can make a big difference but I believe needs to be done very carefully and subtlety I went to one professionally set up and built cinema room and th

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7 hours ago, Johannes said:

https://hofa-akustik.de/akustikmodule/akustikbild/#motiv

Is anyone here seriously considering using something like this?

why wouldn't they?

SO is limited in what it can achieve, room treatment is complementary when done right.

no amount of perfect setting up of your system following "the basic rules" is going to eliminate a fundamental room mode which is causing a big suck out at a specific frequency.

Yes you can move the listening position and speakers around a bit to help, but that's not practical and will have limited success.

56 minutes ago, akamatsu said:

He said that most people on the forum are not interested in having discussions that achieve some sort of truth, but are rather interested in pushing their own agendas.

I don't recognise this about this forum at all, I think there's generally a good healthy discussion, a difference of opinion is fine.

I'd be interested in hearing what agendas people are pushing.

56 minutes ago, akamatsu said:

However, there are some of us who have scientific minds and are very interested in furthering the collective knowledge. Thank goodness that there are people, like the engineers at Linn, who know far more than I do.

It's best to counter nonsense with simple facts. I learned this as an engineer, that is, to let the facts do the talking. Also, cite a reference for information. Anyone can make an assertion with no verification. But it is totally meaningless.

I personally like to counter nonsense with scientific facts, citations and measurements.

yet sadly even when this is done too often the same people still claim the tweaks don't work....

43 minutes ago, akamatsu said:

In the same conversation, the dealer also said that many people on the forum buy their Linn equipment used, and don't have access to a dealer as a result. This is unfortunate, as over the past 33 years, I've found the dealers to be the best source for information and expertise. I would recommend reaching out to a nearby dealer, and establishing a relationship. Dealers sell used equipment too.

unfortunately the thread on dealer setup shows that some dealers are much worse than others and don't put the effort in to setting things up as they should do.

make sure you find a decent dealer! 

Edited by Phobic
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9 minutes ago, Johannes said:

Often people buy used Linn because they heard about it and it was cheap. But they don't buy music or without a dealer it won't make music for them.

I learned this decades ago. I had a pair of Linn Index Plus speakers, I bought Linn Kan IIs with stands used. I didn't do a very good job of setting them up and reported to the dealer that they sounded like my Index, to which he replied, "They should sound way better." He guided me in the set up, and they sounded way better.

Imagine if I didn't have the dealer to guide me, and I stumbled upon this forum. I may have had wobbly Kans, and no tune.

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5 minutes ago, Phobic said:

 SO is limited in what it can achieve, room treatment is complementary when done right.

Correct. My suggestion is to convert MS Visio to SO3.
 

6 minutes ago, Phobic said:

mount of perfect setting up of your system following "the basic rules" is going to eliminate a fundamental room mode which is causing a big suck out at a specific frequency.

Yes you can move the listening position and speakers around a bit to help, but that's not practical and will have limited success.

I've had different experiences so far. A friend of mine has the most difficult room you can imagine. And it sounds gigantic only with Standards and SO2.
@akamatsu is quite right.
Okay, I had to use optimizing with him, something I try to avoid.

Maybe I'll get a case like that where I don't get anywhere, but it won't be the rule.

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6 minutes ago, akamatsu said:

Imagine if I didn't have the dealer to guide me, and I stumbled upon this forum. I may have had wobbly Kans, and no tune.

Wonderful conclusion.

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6 minutes ago, Johannes said:

I've had different experiences so far.

please share your measurements which show this as it's counter to the accepted science

Edited by Phobic
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2 minutes ago, Phobic said:

  

why wouldn't they?

SO is limited in what it can achieve, room treatment is complementary when done right.

no amount of perfect setting up of your system following "the basic rules" is going to eliminate a fundamental room mode which is causing a big suck out at a specific frequency.

Yes you can move the listening position and speakers around a bit to help, but that's not practical and will have limited success.

I don't recognise this about this forum at all, I think there's generally a good healthy discussion, a difference of opinion is fine.

I'd be interested in hearing what agendas people are pushing.

I personally like to counter nonsense with scientific facts, citations and measurements.

yet sadly even when this is done too often the same people still claim the tweaks don't work....

unfortunately the thread on dealer setup shows that some dealers are much worse than others and don't put the effort in to setting things up as they should do.

make sure you find a decent dealer! 

I absolutely agree with you on every point Phobic. 

‘This thread is about challenges that people have with their listening room setup, not about tweaks.

Talking about people putting forward their personal agenda and misinformation, ‘I would appreciate if Akamatsu and Johannes keep their ad nauseam comments on tweaks and upgrades to another thread and not pollute this thread. I find it especially obnoxious that they then reward themselves with reputation points  for every negative comment they make about how we are all wrong and only they are right.

I am not sure why they would bring such negativity to this forum, and what that does to people that want to post their comments, but don’t, because they feel like they will be attacked if they post something that doesn’t agree with the bullies. 

‘This behaviour is extremely disrespectful to all of the rest of us who are experienced music lovers and well versed in what a great sounding HiFi system sounds like.

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2 minutes ago, Phobic said:

please share your measurements which show this as it's counter to the accepted science

Good scientists actually know that they know nothing and that everything is based on assumptions.

But @Phobic I am very interested in the REW stuff. Not to use it as a standard, but to achieve independence with SO2.
You are really the expert and could help.

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5 minutes ago, Paulssurround said:

I absolutely agree with you on every point Phobic. 

‘This thread is about challenges that people have with their listening room setup, not about tweaks.

Talking about people putting forward their personal agenda and misinformation, ‘I would appreciate if Akamatsu and Johannes keep their ad nauseam comments on tweaks and upgrades to another thread and not pollute this thread. I find it especially obnoxious that they then reward themselves with reputation points  for every negative comment they make about how we are all wrong and only they are right.

I am not sure why they would bring such negativity to this forum, and what that does to people that want to post their comments, but don’t, because they feel like they will be attacked if they post something that doesn’t agree with the bullies. 

‘This behaviour is extremely disrespectful to all of the rest of us who are experienced music lovers and well versed in what a great sounding HiFi system sounds like.

@Paulssurround 

Hmmh who actually writes their tweak devices in here every week, always with the company name?
No one is denying your experience, but I think you took a wrong turn at some point and didn't even take 5 minutes to try something that I, for example, consider important. That makes me think. I have also, and some others who no longer post here, tried many of the things you suggested, and in the past there was very valuable advice. But lately it's all been disconcerting. 

With your tweak advice that you test for yourself and some others, we know what that does sonically. So it's hard to assume that there is still a competence here that has undoubtedly existed before.

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Before this gets further out of hand, perhaps we should provide advice and comment on ONLY those things we have first-hand experience with. So, if you have actual tried product X, please discuss; if you have not, then stay away from commenting. Ask questions, but why badger?

In all the years I have been involved with stereo forums, I have never posted about anything I have not tried in my own system, or heard in another system.

Why imply that someone’s experience can’t be right? Do you need an actual roadmap for Eden? Heaven? Nirvana (not a place)?

Have some faith in your friends’ experiences, after all, we all want the best sound we can get.

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32 minutes ago, Johannes said:

Good scientists actually know that they know nothing and that everything is based on assumptions.

no, I'm afraid that's not right, it's based on testable & provable theories which are confirmed experimentally.

"A theory is a verified hypothesis, after it has been submitted to the control of reason and experimental criticism. The soundest theory is one that has been verified by the greatest number of facts. But to remain valid, a theory must be continually altered to keep pace with the progress of science and must be constantly resubmitted to verification and criticism as new facts appear." — Claude Bernard

32 minutes ago, Johannes said:

But @Phobic I am very interested in the REW stuff. Not to use it as a standard, but to achieve independence with SO2.
You are really the expert and could help.

I'm really keen to help you with REW, I think it will be a real eye opener for you. I'm far from an expert though!

From your writing I can tell you have a good ear and a lot of knowledge, REW will help you visualise what your ear and experience is getting right. 

Hopefully it will also open the door to the potential for additional improvement for you as well once you're able to pinpoint problem areas .

not sure if you've ever read Floyd Toole's sound reproduction book?

He provides a useful summary halfway through, hopefully it's ok to quote a chunk of that

Quote
  1. Everything matters
  2. There are no generalised “cookbook” solutions, no magic-bullet room dimensions
  3. Without your own acoustical measurements, you are flying blind
  4. Without high-res measurements you are myopic
  5. With good measurements & some mathematical predictive capability, you are in a strong position to identify & explain major problems
  6. There are indications that some combination of low-frequency acoustical treatment, multiple subwoofers, and equalisation will be helpful
Edited by Phobic
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I met PaulSurround in front of a Komri Exakt system with four Twins doing SO1 optimization.

We listen to Peggy Lee and I mentioned, that she isn’t sexy enough. He changed two or three parameters and Peggy was as sexy as I expected.

So I guess, Paul is knowing what he’s doing. And he’s listening very carefully.

I respect him even I’m not convinced that all tweaks are working with my system.

E. g. GUNSTIG is a no-go in my system.

And also the way some people use SO as an equalizer is not my cup of tea (ok, I have no SO).

But again: I respect different views and would not judge it as “wrong” or “nonsens”.

Piece...

Edited by Ben Webster
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1 minute ago, Johannes said:

@Paulssurround 

Hmmh who actually writes their tweak devices in here every week, always with the company name?
No one is denying your experience, but I think you took a wrong turn at some point and didn't even take 5 minutes to try something that I, for example, consider important. That makes me think. I have also, and some others who no longer post here, tried many of the things you suggested, and in the past there was very valuable advice. But lately it's all been disconcerting. 

With your tweak advice that you test for yourself and some others, we know what that does sonically. So it's hard to assume that there is still a competence here that has undoubtedly existed before.

I respectfully disagree, and believe that if you or I were to hear each other’s Linn systems would gain an appreciation of what each other has done.

‘My system has never sounded better, and I make no excuses for it. I will continue to post things that may be of interest to Linn owners.

By aligning yourself with Akamatsu’s negativity and attacks, you lose credibility with the knowledge that you have gained from lifetime of being in the industry. Also your attitude that we are all wrong is incredibly disrespectful and has no basis of fact. It makes you look very close minded, and some may perceive that style of posting as a know it all. 

I think that you and I are more alike than you think and I do respect some of what you say. Perhaps it is the translation program, but there is a lot that does not translate well, and comes across quite arrogant. I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt.

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1 minute ago, Eldarboy said:

Before this gets further out of hand, perhaps we should provide advice and comment on ONLY those things we have first-hand experience with. So, if you have actual tried product X, please discuss; if you have not, then stay away from commenting. Ask questions, but why badger?

In all the years I have been involved with stereo forums, I have never posted about anything I have not tried in my own system, or heard in another system.

Why imply that someone’s experience can’t be right? Do you need an actual roadmap for Eden? Heaven? Nirvana (not a place)?

Have some faith in your friends’ experiences, after all, we all want the best sound we can get.

That would be a simple solution however I think it's good and healthy to hear counter views, it's important that advice can stand up to challenges and scrutiny, especially where that advice is to spend large sums of money.

I think this can be done in a way which is helpful and non-confrontational.

I personally prefer to have both sides presented along with evidence and background reading, it's ultimately for the reader to make an informed choice given all the facts presented.

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Well parallel to the starting flame war I will add my 2 cents and try to get this topic back on track... B|

Please see my living room. Essentially my listening area is a 4x4 meter box, not ideal I can tell, tried to set up on the small wall, but this gave me te same problem whilst also obstructing my view.

I’m not sure which Hz my problem exactly is, but I have some tracks which where really unlistenable due to the overblown bass. I experimented with: shifting furniture, adding a matras as absorber, tried every wall for the set-up. Really frustrating period because already purchased the M140’s second hand.. All in all the situation led me to a MDSi betting my cash on SO which really delivers in my case.

7F1D710E-94FF-4281-8D7B-2156224CE787.jpeg

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