Lawrence001

Why do worse measuring components sound better?

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35 minutes ago, oldius said:

And ATC are among my favourite speakers! 

We absolutely have the same view.

I have no doubt that the ATC speakers measure better than the Croft and Harbeth. The fact is that I prefer the former and you prefer the latter, regardless of how they measure. Therefore, measurements may tell the story of proximity to the recording but they cannot determine how the brain will perceive the output made. That is a matter of personal preference and, I guess, determined by innumerable  physiological responses.

That's probably the most important part and my understanding is that we still do not fully understand the way that our brains receive and perceive sound. I suspect that there is more at play than what we are aware of hearing that feeds into the overall feeling we get from music.

I love my ATC speakers. I'd only change them for 50ASL or 100ASL.

Edited by Griff500
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1 hour ago, Camverton said:

Can I ask how good the “ball” volume control is in practical use under the finger so to speak? 

I've just tried it - there's a fair bit of weight/resistance in it but it's very smooth and easy to accurately adjust. I'd say it's weighted nicely. 

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2 hours ago, garn63 said:

Does anyone else find that as they age (slight hearing rolloff) that they seek & indeed enjoy a bit more resolving system ?

even though I can't really hear past 14kHz sine wave, I know if stuff is missing above that point

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On 18/01/2021 at 17:22, Griff500 said:

That's probably the most important part and my understanding is that we still do not fully understand the way that our brains receive and perceive sound. I suspect that there is more at play than what we are aware of hearing that feeds into the overall feeling we get from music.  

I love my ATC speakers. I'd only change them for 50ASL or 100ASL.

Got to agree ATC speakers are good.  Had extended listening periods with them at two dealers in East Anglia.  At Signals in Bucklesham, they were connected to sn ATC integrated Amp and thought the biggest stand mounts were better than the others.  A few months later spent quite a few hours in a dealer's listening room in Norwich.  He had a pair of huge ATC floor standarders  hooked up to expensive Ayre electronics.  They were mind blowing and asked would I mind listening to some other speakers?  He got help moving them out of the way and put some really big Triangle speakers in their place.  After that he connected up some Maggie Electrostatics.  Neither could come close to the sound from the ATCs.  Living in a small house has its disadvantages and not being able to fit a pair into my living room, is top of the list.  Sorry about not being able to remember which models they were, it was a long time ago.  Think the stand mounts at Signals were the 19s?

Edited by Ron Hilditch
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Super Wammer
5 hours ago, Ron Hilditch said:

Got to agree ATC speakers are good.  Had extended listening periods with them at two dealers in East Anglia.  At Signals in Bucklesham, they were connected to sn ATC integrated Amp and thought the biggest stand mounts were better than the others.  A few months later spent quite a few hours in a dealer's listening room in Norwich.  He had a pair of huge ATC floor standarders  hooked up to expensive Ayre electronics.  They were mind blowing and asked would I mind listening to some other speakers?  He got help moving them out of the way and put some really big Triangle speakers in their place.  After that he connected up some Maggie Electrostatics.  Neither could come close to the sound from the ATCs.  Living in a small house has its disadvantages and not being able to fit a pair into my living room, is top of the list.  Sorry about not being able to remember which models they were, it was a long time ago.  Think the stand mounts at Signals were the 19s?

The standmounts were most likely the SCM19's and the "huge ATC floorstanders" probably the SCM150's.

If you liked the passive ATC's you simply must hear the actives. Compare any passive model witht he same active model and unless you're going to spend stupid money on the electronics driving the passives, you'll be hooked on the actives.

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On 12/01/2021 at 19:13, Lawrence001 said:

Something I've been thinking about for years. At first it was based around amplifiers, notably valve amps, but my knowledge in that area is limited to the standard "even order distortion good, odd order bad" answer. (I'll be honest I don't even know what that means but I just accept it as it's a view held by so many who've been in the game longer than me.)

More recently I've been drawn to the discussions around DACs as I have found that the ones I like get bad reviews on ASR based on their measurements. I don't buy the idea that's it's all in my head, as I've been in the game long enough to tell if a component sounds ok or not to me, and the bad measuring DACs consistently get me staying up late to listen to more and more albums.

I've also said in another thread that I listen to music quietly, so the first question is, does some distortion act like a kind of loudness adjustment (but in distortion or other "bad" measurement terms) that makes quiet music sound more exciting?

The corollary to that is, can I take the measurements of the various DACs that I like and those I don't and derive optimal curves that define the imperfect measurements that I like? If I can do that, then I can choose my DACs purely on measurements, it's just that it's not those that measure best I will buy, but those whose imperfections measure as close to my personal imperfect curves as possible.

If everyone could have their personal curves measured them we could all buy based on measurements. Surely Keith would approve of such an outcome?

Sent from my BKL-L09 using Tapatalk

Why do worse measuring components sound better?

Worse measuring components sound better to some people. And they sound worse to other people. It's a matter of taste.

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On 15/01/2021 at 20:28, StingRay said:

As for measurements, a lot of them don’t mean anything.

To you personally or in general? :P

On 15/01/2021 at 20:28, StingRay said:

Maybe poor measuring ones can sound better if they can be more dynamic

This is of course a matter of taste but the effects produced by some distortions can be perceived as more "lively", "dynamic", "exciting", etc.

On 15/01/2021 at 20:28, StingRay said:

many recordings are over compressed these days.

Depends on the genre. Classical recordings seldom are.

On 15/01/2021 at 20:28, StingRay said:

Also quite a few people, don’t like completely flat frequency response.

In regard to speakers, flat on-axis frequency is a goal only for 1m meter anechoic performance.

Such speakers will not measure flat in a room at normal listening distances.

Both the Brüel & Kjær and the Harman target curve show that tilt.

Some treble roll-off may "disguise" a harsh source, amplification or recording, a small speaker with crippled low-end extension may not trigger the strong modes of a particularly problematic room.

On 15/01/2021 at 20:28, StingRay said:

The speakers usually have the greatest distortion and the room will influence the sound.

And yet we can hear differences in cartidges and tonearms, DACs and amplifiers... Unless they all sound the same and we're imagining things.

Edited by tuga

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Haha I have realised just how much having a girlfriend put a reign on my listening habits. She would have left sharpish if I had played Grachan Moncur before bed.
Must seek out on Tidal

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Going back to this just quickly, another currency I often get asked for Lawrence is V-Bucks! 
What's that Eddie? Something I need to look out for I suspect!

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25 minutes ago, tuga said:

This is of course a matter of taste but the effects produced by some distortions can be as more "lively", "dynamic", "exciting", etc.

What is the scientific basis upon which you base your belief that the only reason for differences in sound are distortions, etc? Is there something somewhere to confirm beyond dispute or doubt that the only measurements of a DAC that impact the sound are those measurements currently being used?

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Just now, Griff500 said:

What is the scientific basis upon which you base your belief that the only reason for differences in sound are distortions, etc? Is there something somewhere to confirm beyond dispute or doubt that the only measurements of a DAC that impact the sound are those measurements currently being used?

One hears differences in sounds which are deviations (distortions) of the accurate reproduction of the signal, the absolute perfect (which is impossible). Such differences are perceived as good or bad depending on the listener's taste.

I don't know if all differences are measurable but from I have read most are.

Are all measureable differences audible? I guess it depends on the listener's training/ability and whether or not they fall inside the relevant audibility threshold.

I am unsure whether currently accepted audibility thresholds are accurate.

.

Harman has produced research on audibility. One of the things that came up was that listener training correlates with effectiveness at detecting audible differences and distortions.

It is the validity of their preference research that I question because in my opinion there are holes in the methodlogy used.

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16 hours ago, TheFlash said:

The standmounts were most likely the SCM19's and the "huge ATC floorstanders" probably the SCM150's.

If you liked the passive ATC's you simply must hear the actives. Compare any passive model witht he same active model and unless you're going to spend stupid money on the electronics driving the passives, you'll be hooked on the actives.

Did the SCM19s use a SEAS tweeter back then?  Remember the dealer showing  me the ATCs in house made Woofer and the engineering quality was superb.  Told both dealers I was not going to buy anything immediately.  They both took time and trouble, so many thanks to them.  Will try to go and listen to SCM150s when this Covid thing goes away.  On the active speaker subject, used to own an AVI integrated Amp.  Why did I ever sell it 🙇?   Had a chat with AVIs owner on the phone.  His opinion was go for active speakers.  Never did, think we sometimes get in a rut and keep going down the same route.  

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Super Wammer

Caught up with this and enjoyed most of it . Couple of things to say I like Croft power amps (not as keen on the pre's I have owned a Croft OTL Power Amp for over 18 months and have still not heard it this makes me sad but hopefully this year I will get to listen to it. I have no problem with other people not liking the sound of Croft we are all different and looking for our special sound . The real secret I think is knowing that you like your own individual sound and going for it , others my go another way but that is their sound and only you can know your sound.

 I never in my whole life have ever wanted or felt the need to be taught how to listen . I know how to hear music and enjoy and I am content with that I have never worked in the Hi Fi Trade and have no wish to now . What I want is people to introduce me to new music and expand my ever growing collection .

Edited by bencat
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