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An update on my reply regarding the headphones and my qualified recommendation regarding the AKG N60NC. I decided to first re-evaluate them wired to compare with the Sennheiser HD600s and (more fairly) Sennheiser Momentum On-ear.
But....there is something very wrong with them - the audio equivalent of looking down the wrong end of a telescope. Further investigation and perhaps a warranty claim is needed. So not a good sign. Need to figure out wh'appen. :(

Edited by livingid
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Posted (edited)
36 minutes ago, livingid said:

An update on my reply regarding the headphones and my qualified recommendation regarding the AKG N60NC. I decided to first re-evaluate them wired to compare with the Sennheiser HD600s and (more fairly) Sennheiser Momentum On-ear.
But....there is something very wrong with them - the audio equivalent of looking down the wrong end of a telescope. Further investigation and perhaps a warranty claim is needed. So not a good sign. Need to figure out wh'appen. :(

Oh dear thought your follow up was going to be good news but it was not to be :(

Edited by Cas
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4 minutes ago, Cas said:

Oh dear thought your follow up was going to be good news about it was not to be :(

Pity. I liked them and this might be a rare occurrence. But it is hard to recommend in these circumstances. On the bright side your post has caused me to spot this - perhaps before it is too late to remedy. Every cloud and all that....hope you sort out some good cans.:^

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11 minutes ago, livingid said:

Pity. I liked them and this might be a rare occurrence. But it is hard to recommend in these circumstances. On the bright side your post has caused me to spot this - perhaps before it is too late to remedy. Every cloud and all that....hope you sort out some good cans.:^

OK - hold on. I take it back. Or most of it. Dodgy lead! It is an AKG custom-jobby ( 2.5mm to 3.5mm w/ mic channel) and, unlike the Senns leads,  it is not mating well at the female end (so to speak). I found a different adapter and it is clear that the problem is not with the phones. So perhaps this report is back on. Await further dispatches.....

Edited by livingid
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The suspense is killing me!

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On 03/03/2021 at 20:32, livingid said:

OK - hold on. I take it back. Or most of it. Dodgy lead! It is an AKG custom-jobby ( 2.5mm to 3.5mm w/ mic channel) and, unlike the Senns leads,  it is not mating well at the female end (so to speak). I found a different adapter and it is clear that the problem is not with the phones. So perhaps this report is back on. Await further dispatches.....

Ok finally here are my  notes
Apologies in advance for a case of TL:DR. Not used to this review style malarky
Musical notes at the end

Hardware/Sources
Passive phones only
Source: Spotify on Mac Laptop via USB
DAC: Topping E30
Headphone Amp: Topping L30 at +9db (for the sake of the HD600s)
Reference: Sennheiser HD600
Subject: AKG N60NC
Comparison: Sennheiser Momentum On-Ear

Bluetooth (didn't use bluetooth on my mac because it is screwed  - just got it working and it is a clear improvement compared to the phone. Bass tightens up , clarity improves, edge is taken off the brightness . Punches are punchier. Dynamics are.....more dynamic)
Source: Spotify on a humble Moto G7 play (see above)

Test Tracks:
World Looking In - Morcheeba
If - Pink Floyd
Don't Want to Know - John Martyn
Pale Blue Eyes - Closest Mix: The Velvet Underground
Sweet Jane: Cowboy Junkies
Misty Mountain Hop: Led Zeppelin
Daydreaming: Massive Attack
The Man Machine: Kraftwerk
Sheep: Pink Floyd
Red Right Hand: Nick Cave & The Bad Seeds
I Just Don't Know What To Do With Myself: White Stripes
Big Yellow Taxi: Joni Mitchell


AKG v Sennheiser duo. 
AKG 
Pros:
Upfront, dynamic, engaging and coherent sound. 
Punchy, strong but reasonably tight bass that doesn't overwhelm. 
Efficient, so don't need much driving. 
Suits music with dynamics, rhythm and tempo.
Strong impact factor
Soundstage is very much inside/ wrapped round the head which works well for an intimate mobile sound. 
Good design with folding cups and come with a decent fabric bag for transportation. 
In wired mode perform best when Noise Cancelling is on - they are more immersive, precise and engaging. 

Cons:
Lacking in intricacy, detail and 3D sound stage compared to reference (HD600s).

Less suited to long detailed listening sessions
The up front nature of the sound (not laid back)  makes them less suited to long listening  session
These differences are less pronounced in quantity with the Momentum on-ears but similar in quality.

Comparative Strengths of headphones used

I feel the laid back nature of the Sennheisers make them good for prolonged listening spells where the main purpose is for involvement in the music. Also applies to the superlight feel of the Momentums (although this could just be because they are older and more broken-in)

Whereas the engaging sound of the AKGs are good for a go to all purpose headphone for a variety of circumstances. e.g. travelling, ad hoc settings, opportunistic moments. The different modes work for this - including wireless, wired, noise cancelling or passive. Also the efficiency which means a low powered source can be used in passive wired mode e.g. even if the battery has run out. 

For me a nice contrast to the Sennheisers. If out of the 3 headphones I had to pick 2 and I could only listen wired - then I would choose the HD600s and AKGs . 

If I had to choose between the Momentums and the AKGs and only wired then I would go for the Sennheisers because I am a Sennheiser devotee. If I was on the move though and were going to listen at work then I would happily take the AKGs for all occasions. I think they are good phones for practical, all purpose enjoyment - perhaps not for prolonged audiophile sessions. 

Overall
The AKGs grab the attention well and are very musical and portable. They are toe tapping and good for immediate involvement in a song. Stronger at enjoying tunes than getting involved in intricate detail.
They are a hybrid plastic and metal construction. The metal components are the core of the handband, rims of the ear cups and the ear cup pivot sleeve. The padded ear cup and head band covers are soft fake leatherette. The ear cups fold inward for storage and transportation.  
I have currently tried on a basic Bluetooth source a low end Android mobile (Moto G7 Play). But the AKGs work well in this mode. What might be perceived as weaknesses when listening in wired mode on lounge and highish end desktop systems become strengths. I feel the inside/wrapped round the head soundstage works nicely in a mobile mode. The punchy dynamic engaging sound is good when dipping into tracks as opposed to a 'horizontal' extended listening session.
They can't compete with the HD600s in their place and I think the Momentum on-ear have the edge for me. Nor would they probably with top of the range Sennheiser bluetoothsor I imagine the top of the range Sonys that seem to get best in class reviews. 
When I can move around (one day!) I would take these AKGs. I imagine to and from work too - where I work in a shared office. Also if wandering round the house, music to cook to. But I would revert to the Sennheisers when tethered to my desk. 
 

So that is the main opinion. I would need to do more to attach up a better bluetooth source. Specific Musical notes follow 

I am going to have a beer

Cheers
Dave

Musical Notes

THe Sennheiser HD600 Reference was a clear winner on most tracks (no surprise there then ). The tracklist might actually reflect the strengths of the HD600s as they are musical selections that I will use to assess an amp or dac etc. In which case I will generally be listening through the HD600s - so it is a bit of a circular argument. 

However in wired mode on the test system the AKGs probably took the honours on: 
Sheep (Animals, Pink Floyd)
I Just Don't Know What To Do With Myself (Elephant, White Stripes)

Honorable Mentions:
The Man Machine (The Man Machine, Kraftwerk)
Daydreaming (Blue Lines, Massive Attack)
Big Yellow Taxi (Ladies of the Canyon, Joni Mitchell)
Mity Mountain Hop (Led Zep IV, Led Zeppelin)

Bluetooth notes - AKG only
From Moto G7 Play. uncertain of underlying hardware
Compared to wired from the L30

Sheep
Bluetooth 
Brighter sound , not quite harsh. Less subtle detail.
Retains all the punch and dynamics. Bass perhaps less tight than when wired to the L30. 
Could attain ear splitting volumes if required
Psalm 23 mostly discernible
Very enjoyable from a mobile. Could handle this whilst sitting on the train with my Dark Side face mask on!

Wired from Moto G7 headphone socket
Less clarity. Couldn't reach deafening levels. More laid back and restrained sound. Sounded more like a phone and not like an audio device. The phone was clearly hobbling the headphones. Although spatial definition was suprisingly good . Bizarrly the compression at both ends of the frequency scale gave it a rather nice mid range sound. SO for getting home at low listening levels it will do.   

Bluetooth only. 

Big Yellow Taxi
Hugely enjoyable for sound from a mobile device. Sound stage is wrapped round the head. Not wide but very intimate with strong stereo impression. 

The Man Machine
Punchy, direct sound. Again not wide and expansive but immediate and with some internal separation - inside ones head. Again this seems to work well with a mobile device especially when moving around focused and not distracting. Immersive though. 
Musical Notes


Wired from Topping E30/L30

World Looking In
HD600: Breathy vocals especially in opening where close miked breathing is palpable. Wide separation of sound stage and instrumentation. 360 degree positioning and spaces between.  Exact timing, punchy and discrete transients. Immersion and involvement with the music. Super bright and splashy cymbals. Glorious!

AKG (NC Off): Breathy vocals but not as wheezy as the reference.  Engaging sound punchy and coherent. Tight bass which is more pronounced compared to the mid-range. Instrument soundstage narrower with not as much separation as reference. Cymbals not as bright, more restrained. Dynamic, rhythmic and toe-tapping. Enjoyable but not as refined and detailed as the reference. NC on - turns up the toe tapping to 11, makes a more direct connection to music [Seems to be about 10.5 to 11.5 db more sensitive than the reference ]. 

Momentum On-Ear:  More laid back that the AKG with some of the HD600 signatures. Not as much sound separation and 3D stage as the HD600 but more than the AKG. Not as punchy as the AKG with less bass notes. Slightly brighter.  [seems to be about 7.5 to 8.5db more sensitive than the reference ]

If
HD600:  Opening guitar far off to left stage. Close miking of Happy Rog's voice - like being at the dentists! Instruments are clearly separated and can be easily attended to separately. Lovely acoustics and beautiful timing. Gilmour's guitar is ethereal and floats. Overpowering sense of immersion. Beautiful!

AKG: Opening guitar left stage but more 2-dimensionally located. Rog's vocals have less saliva. Everything is less separated which gives it a bigger and more coherent sound - perhaps less clinical. Very musical. Bass guitar more upfront than in the reference. NC - appears to widen the soundstage and increase the separation - also connects one more to the music. 

Momentum on-ear: Again closer to the AKG than the HD600 with a more laid back, less dynamic but more detailed and intricate sound but not reference levels.

Don't want to know
HD600: OMG never fails to please - actually appear to be sitting inside the maestro's guitar. Again overwhelming separation of instruments and immersive soundstage. Keep forgetting to concentrate on the sound and just listen to the music. Exceptional! 

AKG: Big, sweet and toe tapping sound. Trading intricacy for musicality and dynamism. The maestro becomes more of a troubador. NC on - again increases the immersivity and involvement. Everything is more direct and in your face - bopping.

Momentum on-ear: Again more HD600 than AKG. The troubador has stepped over for the maestro again. Everything is bit more laid back. 

Pale Blue Eyes
HD600: Made for the HD600. Right there in the closet with Lou. Wide and flat sound. You can see the tambourine chimes. Tear's one attention apart across the panned-mix. Bonkers!

AKG: The difference between the standard mix and the closet mix is not so pronounced. Again the song is very musical, engaging and up front - not as intricate but more dynamic.  Up to now the choice of music is possibly playing at home for the Sennheisers - maybe why I like Sennheisers so much (or maybe the other way round). Enjoyable but not as distinctive rendering of the song. NC on - the sound is more intimate and enveloping.

Momentum on-ear:  The same comments as previously with regards to the AKG v Sennheiser sound. The emphasis here is on the centrality of Lou Reed's vocals. Perhaps it falls a bit between two stools here. And whilst the Reference wins again, perhaps the AKG is just pips the Momentum for the contrast.  

Sweet Jane
HD600: Again probably on home turf for the Sennheisers. Laid back and immersive. All the instrumentation revealed. A hi-hat over the right shoulder and then another cymbal above left that you can see the dimples on and feel the drumstick and the damping hand. Margo literally and metaphorically singing in your head. Emotional!

AKG: A nice warm rendition. Again not the startling detail of the reference phones but musical. The big bottom end is perhaps what obscures some of the intricacies but perhaps adds to a feeling of punchiness and musicality. NC on - clearly more immersive and in your head.

Momentum on-ear: Again the same old story. The pros of the reference phones but not as turned up to 11. As a piece of equipment the momentums are nice and transparent e.g. They blend into the background, which makes them a bit underwhelming but good for long sessions as they tend to grow on you. But then this is not about the momentums!

Misty Mountain Hop
HD600: Time to get onto the AKGs home territory perhaps. Actually the HD600s really rock with this because of the stereo mix and JBs slightly off beat drums in left field (literally and metaphorically). Whilst a rock track the laid back HD600s do it justice - as it is quite a loose and laid back sound. So maybe not such a dolly shot for the AKGs?

AKG: Have stopped listening with NC-off, IMO the AKGs work best with it turned on. More coherent and engaging than the reference. Again less intricate and the off-beat sound doesn't come through as much. But very enjoyable and big sound that gets the head bobbing - as Zep should do. 

Momentum on-ear: Starting to think I don't need to listen to these any more - I can predict the differences. Like shrunken HD600s. Thinner sounding and more laid back than the AKGs, a more airy sound. 

Daydreaming
HD600s: Big and in your face. When he's toking you are the roach. Sense of timing, rhythm and space is.....massive. Clean and punchy. As it is says on the tin - Massive Attack

AKG: Big, bassy and relentless. More enclosed than the reference. Again some intricacies are under emphasised. However, nice and direct , very musical. 

Momentum on-ear: Skipped them for this and went directly onto....

The Man Machine
HD600: A lot of intricate electronic detail. A spatial electronic feast with a feeling of precision. The distinction between all the components is clear. 

AKG: Worked well with this, emphasising the punchy, electro pop boppi-ness as opposed to the electronic intricacies that as the bias of the reference. Became more of a electro-pop than electronicas

Sheep:
HD600: A lot of detail and tension. Perhaps the as Mr Happy comes in there could be more punch and less clinical. I do love this track but I often need to turn it up a notch loud on the HD600s to get the desired effect of Gilmour's chunky guitar and Mason's pounding drums. However the 360 soundstage and intricate detail is the strength - as well as the electronic animal sounds of course! Every vocoded word of the perverted Psalm 23 is discernible. 

AKG: Perhaps they pay their way just by the performance on this track. The loss of detail compared to the reference is made up by how enjoyable(?) this track is rendered. The general sardonic snarl is picked out by the spatial compression. Nice and punchy, the bass detail works well here. The AKGs are certainly Animals-istic. And I can still make out most of the Happy one's version of Psalm 23. Nasty but nice. 

Red Right Hand
HD600. The cigarette 'scene' is like you are the one doing the smoking and lighting. The bell is stark and reverberates. So much going on here, lots of dramatic musical involvement. Timing. 

AKG: Toe tapping and menacing. Dynamic. The lighting of the cigarette and subsequent drag is less visceral than in the reference. Again sacrifices intricacy for musicality - e.g. the bell is slightly less stark, sharp and ringing, there is less going on. But an enjoyable rendition. More a song than an experience.  

I Just Don't Know What To Do With Myself
HD600: Not completely on home turf for the HD600s. Good stereo imagery but the intricate detail is not the forte of this mix. The HD600s manage to refine the sound whereby the distortion becomes a layered feature. Every part of the lo-fi mix laid bare - maybe too much information - although you really get a feel of the soul and emotion in Jack White's voice.   

AKG: Definitely AKG territory here. Rounding the edges totally works here, as does the tight punchy bass. The distortion is a coherent part of the song rather than noisy detail. Really gets the head banging.   

Big Yellow Taxi

HD600: Bright and complex. The triangle is more than just a single sound you can hear it the dinger(?) bounce. Significant separation on the percussion which is outside one's head


AKG: Good fun and bouncy. More inside the head. Toe tapping. Less distinctly locatable percussion but can still just about pick up that bouncing dinger. 

Momentum on-ear: Tried these one last time. Again they emphasise that they have the Sennheiser sound. Less in your face, a bit more space, everything in place. 
 
 


 

Edited by livingid
Info on bluetooth source missing and type
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That's a pretty comprehensive review I hope the OP appreciates it!

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In terms of comfort, I struggled with my Sennheiser Momentum (non Bluetooth) as they pressed down on my ears, despite then being the larger over ear model. I think some people don't mind that though.

Note sure about their other models but I also struggled with AKG 701/702 as the foam was quite hard so it felt hard when worn and didn't mould to the shape of your head, leaving gaps around the cups. HD650 pads were much better in this regard.

Worth bearing fit and comfort in mind when you choose a pair.

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4 hours ago, Lawrence001 said:

In terms of comfort, I struggled with my Sennheiser Momentum (non Bluetooth) as they pressed down on my ears, despite then being the larger over ear model. I think some people don't mind that though.

Note sure about their other models but I also struggled with AKG 701/702 as the foam was quite hard so it felt hard when worn and didn't mould to the shape of your head, leaving gaps around the cups. HD650 pads were much better in this regard.

Worth bearing fit and comfort in mind when you choose a pair.

Sent from my BKL-L09 using Tapatalk
 

Yes, I agree - have been remiss here. Comfort is important. I did have a few issues with the headband of the Momentum on-ears putting pressure on the same point of my head ironically as a result of the pressure on the ears being so light (and comfortable there) that it didn't take pressure off the head. Easily remedied by a baseball cap or strategically placed hanky. The former being cooler and less weird. However as an old codger perhaps a baseball cap is a bit 'William Hague' and maybe the gumby look is more appropriate. They have had so much use now that this is not as much of a problem - or maybe my head is squashed now.
Anyway I have fixed my mac bluetooth issues and even got an Apt-X codec going - this post is doing me the power of good.
I have a lot of computer work to do this afternoon. So I can do an extended listen on the AKGs using a better BT Codec so being able to comment on the comfort and any listening fatigue. It should help to ease me through the work.

Cheers
Dave
 

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4 hours ago, Lawrence001 said:

In terms of comfort, I struggled with my Sennheiser Momentum (non Bluetooth) as they pressed down on my ears, despite then being the larger over ear model. I think some people don't mind that though.

Note sure about their other models but I also struggled with AKG 701/702 as the foam was quite hard so it felt hard when worn and didn't mould to the shape of your head, leaving gaps around the cups. HD650 pads were much better in this regard.

Worth bearing fit and comfort in mind when you choose a pair.

Sent from my BKL-L09 using Tapatalk
 

I could not get on with the Sennheiser Momentums (overears) either, I found them uncomfortable, headband and around the ears. I did not like the sound either, so I quickly sold them on for a small loss. 

Edited by StingRay
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Update on AKG N60NC using half-decent bluetooth source for an extended listen. 

Source:  Spotify on Mac Laptop via bluetooth with AptX Codec
Headphone: AKG N60NC using bluetooth
Listening time: 2hours +
Noise cancelling: In bluetooth mode  - active noise cancelling is always on

Comfort:
The most noticeable pressure points are the ears rather than the head. Which, for me is in contrast to the Momentum on-ears which feel feather-lite on the ears but are more noticeable on the head. The AKGs have considerable padding on both ears and headband. 
For me the pressure on the ears only started to become a bit uncomfortable after about an hour or so. When some pressure points on the ear pinnae became a little irritating. Shifting the phones a bit relieved this but the shifting had to become more frequent and was less effective after 2+ hours. 
Overall I would rate them as comfortable and I would imagine all on ear phones will suffer from this to a greater or lesser extent compared to over ears. Only a small break was needed for the ear pinnae to 'spring back' and the whole process to reset.

Sound:
Pros:
As with my previous notes these headphones work best in 'music whilst you do stuff' use cases. Their strengths are in communicating the tempo, rhythm and dynamism of a track aka musicality. The soundstage has 3D and stereo detail with out being extensive and extending beyond the confines of the head (a closed phone sound). Great on techno, upbeat electronica, singer-songwriter folk rock, pop-tunes, low-fi, new-wave/punk, hard rock etc.

Cons: 
Don't have an extensive 3D soundstage with pinpoint instrument separation.  
Don't compete with top end phones for intricate detail and long term audiophile sessions.
Not as good for detailed ambient electronica, close mic'd multi-instrument mixes, heavily panned wide-field mixes

Listening Mode:
Pros:
Versatile, all purpose phones. Wired or wireless. In wired can be used totally passive without noise cancelling or battery power (this is the only mode available if charging) . Very portable and an attractive instant sound hit for intermittent listening scenarios.  

Cons:
Wouldn't be the phones of choice for extensive solo listening use cases where a wired connection is an option unless the noise cancelling is needed. For wired listening, when in my own space, my preference are my Sennheisers which give me more detail and a wider soundstage. However the AKGs are a nice contrast.

Overall:
I don't have other bluetooth phones to compare them to. But IMO opinion they sound good when connected via bluetooth both to a crappy mobile with an indeterminate codec and a laptop (or other device) with a decent codec. They have what I consider a punchy, up front AKG-sound. For me they have a niche as a carry around set of phones and if I want to listen on the move in the house or when someone else is in the room. If they were taken away from me, I would buy them again for this purpose - although I would also consider an over ear solution as I don't often require the compactness they provide. However since I have only had them during lockdown I have done limited travel listening. 
As far as the level of noise cancelling is concerned again I have had limited opportunities to really test this. However, I have done a non-scientific test using external speakers and they are more effective than putting my fingers in my ears. For both travelling and for noise limitation, my alternatives, e.g. the Momentum on-ears, are a fail. 

I think the AKG N60NC are good value for the use cases and listening-styles above. Any specific questions I will happily answer, otherwise I'll try and make this my final word (you'll be pleased to know!) 
Cheers
Dave  

ps Foreplay/Long-time by Boston has just come on - that works and gets my head bobbing and face gurning - going to press repeat!

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On 05/03/2021 at 13:08, StingRay said:

I could not get on with the Sennheiser Momentums (overears) either, I found them uncomfortable, headband and around the ears. I did not like the sound either, so I quickly sold them on for a small loss. 

With the Momentum over-ears I found that over time , apart from a desire for a bit more padding on the headband* , I grew into them in terms of comfort. I like the velour pads and they don't give me ear pinnae pain. For me the Momentum Over Ear, as well as having a bit of bass punch,  fundamentally have that detailed Sennheiser sound I have always liked. I find their sound profile is not tiring over extended listening sessions  [an S curve of enjoyment against time].  I am biased though, headphones have always been my main hifi listening mode  - which started many moons ago with HD424x's. They got me hooked and I used them constantly until they fell apart - I loved them to death.

* Could be solved by remedial work on my bald patch.

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9 hours ago, livingid said:

With the Momentum over-ears I found that over time , apart from a desire for a bit more padding on the headband* , I grew into them in terms of comfort. I like the velour pads and they don't give me ear pinnae pain. For me the Momentum Over Ear, as well as having a bit of bass punch,  fundamentally have that detailed Sennheiser sound I have always liked. I find their sound profile is not tiring over extended listening sessions  [an S curve of enjoyment against time].  I am biased though, headphones have always been my main hifi listening mode  - which started many moons ago with HD424x's. They got me hooked and I used them constantly until they fell apart - I loved them to death.

* Could be solved by remedial work on my bald patch.

Mine had leather pads. These got clammy after a while of use. I’m not a big headphone user far prefer speakers. Used to open back headphones but The Momentum’s were very disappointing, I did not like the bass. 

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3 hours ago, StingRay said:

Mine had leather pads. These got clammy after a while of use. I’m not a big headphone user far prefer speakers. Used to open back headphones but The Momentum’s were very disappointing, I did not like the bass. 

Sorry I was being a dimwit. I meant Momentum On-Ear - doh! I keep getting my On-Ears and Over-Ears mixed up. Ear-blind. I have heard of the big bass of the Momentum Over Ear though - which doesn't fit with my audio preferences. Also the leather pads don't fit with my lifestyle preferences. So I don't think these will be on my shopping list. Not cheap either. I notice that there is a PX550-II and HD450BT too now which I don't remember from the last time I looked - sub-£200. A bewildering range.  

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