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Question re flat sounding vinyl with rolled off treble


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@Muttoninyourears if you would like to find out what a better cart would do for SQ and feel confident in doing a cart swap I have a sub 100hr 2M Bronze here doing nothing at the moment. If your happy

Yep happy to loan it out, you have PM

Some also say that the manufacturer should receive some sort of award for producing, in the Blue and Red, two products that have done much to contribute to the reputation of vinyl as being an inferior

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Yeah I only changed the stylus as the red 2M cart will apparently take the blue needle.  It made a small improvement, nothing revolutionary.  I didnt change the VTA/height, but it looks totally flat to the platter (I did also buy a cork mat in error but this made the arm lean up as the platter was too high - I then read that if you have the perspex platter which I do, you dont need a mat.  So I ditched it).  If it looks bang on flat, I'm guessing no need to adjust?

Re your post @plasticpenguin, I think you're probably on the money.  I've literally just bought the amp and speakers, and a new stylus, so won't be changing anything out for a while, but maybe a cart upgrade down the line will help.  I think my setup probably is on the smooth side, and I perhaps should also accept that the clinical precision of digital is generally just a bit clearer than vinyl's more rounded warmth.  My vinyl doesn't sound bad by any means, it's just if you play the same track on both formats and flip between, the difference in clarity (notwithstanding the volume jump) is pretty noticeable, esp on sharp percussion sounds, hi-hats etc.  I think maybe my expectations for a budget-ish vinyl setup were too high to begin with, but with this said I'll still continue to enjoy buying and playing vinyl, because vinyl is nice!

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11 hours ago, Muttoninyourears said:

My vinyl doesn't sound bad by any means, it's just if you play the same track on both formats and flip between, the difference in clarity (notwithstanding the volume jump) is pretty noticeable, esp on sharp percussion sounds, hi-hats etc. 

It has been said (ad nauseum!) that a louder sound appears to be a better sound, when A/B testing.  So a little trick I use is to deliberately set the volume of the apparently better one slightly lower than the worse one and see if it still sounds better.  As it's usually impossible, at home, to level match, this can sometimes be a useful alternative.

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14 hours ago, Muttoninyourears said:

Re your post @plasticpenguin, I think you're probably on the money.  I've literally just bought the amp and speakers, and a new stylus, so won't be changing anything out for a while, but maybe a cart upgrade down the line will help.  I think my setup probably is on the smooth side, and I perhaps should also accept that the clinical precision of digital is generally just a bit clearer than vinyl's more rounded warmth.  My vinyl doesn't sound bad by any means, it's just if you play the same track on both formats and flip between, the difference in clarity (notwithstanding the volume jump) is pretty noticeable, esp on sharp percussion sounds, hi-hats etc.  I think maybe my expectations for a budget-ish vinyl setup were too high to begin with, but with this said I'll still continue to enjoy buying and playing vinyl, because vinyl is nice!

Indeed. It's a case of do I keep spending or am I happy with the compromise? You can always manipulate the presentation but there's no way of getting a digital sound from a vinyl set-up. IME ClearAudio cartridges bridges that gap a little, great VFM for a sub-£200 cartridge.

There are some people who are "sniffy" about ClearAudio, stating they are a Audio Technica in a posh frock. Personally don't care as they are fantastic. But even affordable Pro-jects respond well to a better cartridge.

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@Muttoninyourears if you would like to find out what a better cart would do for SQ and feel confident in doing a cart swap I have a sub 100hr 2M Bronze here doing nothing at the moment. If your happy to cover postage both ways I'd be happy to loan it to you for a week or two, just PM me your address and I will get it sent off. 

Easiest way to do the swap would be to put masking tape either side of the current  cart screws before you removed them, then fix the Bronze back in the same place. 

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3 hours ago, Lurch said:

@Muttoninyourears if you would like to find out what a better cart would do for SQ and feel confident in doing a cart swap I have a sub 100hr 2M Bronze here doing nothing at the moment. If your happy to cover postage both ways I'd be happy to loan it to you for a week or two, just PM me your address and I will get it sent off. 

Easiest way to do the swap would be to put masking tape either side of the current  cart screws before you removed them, then fix the Bronze back in the same place. 

Thanks Lurch, its a really generous offer, but I wont for now (might come back to it later if the offer still stands) - I am a little curious but have never done a cart swap before - I'm sure it isnt that hard but TBH if it does sound better, I'll just be tempted to spend money I dont have currently (out of work, 1yr old baby, just spent £1800 on Hifi kit, boohoohoo I know)!  But yeah if my situation changes over the next couple of months Ill hit you up if that's ok?

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On 22/02/2021 at 18:33, Lurch said:

@Muttoninyourears if you would like to find out what a better cart would do for SQ and feel confident in doing a cart swap I have a sub 100hr 2M Bronze here doing nothing at the moment. If your happy to cover postage both ways I'd be happy to loan it to you for a week or two, just PM me your address and I will get it sent off. 

Easiest way to do the swap would be to put masking tape either side of the current  cart screws before you removed them, then fix the Bronze back in the same place. 

Actually Lurch, if the offer still stands I'd love to take you up on a lend for a couple of weeks?  Can't really feel satisfied with the current setup and curiosity is getting the better of me...I wonder if my cart (not the needle but the cart itself) might actually be slightly damaged.

If you're happy to, send me PP or bank details and let me know how much (I think it would be £4.20 recorded but let me know what you'd want to use and cost) and will send you the postage costs.  If the cart's no longer available no worries.  Thanks!

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1 hour ago, Muttoninyourears said:

Actually Lurch, if the offer still stands I'd love to take you up on a lend for a couple of weeks?  Can't really feel satisfied with the current setup and curiosity is getting the better of me...I wonder if my cart (not the needle but the cart itself) might actually be slightly damaged.

If you're happy to, send me PP or bank details and let me know how much (I think it would be £4.20 recorded but let me know what you'd want to use and cost) and will send you the postage costs.  If the cart's no longer available no worries.  Thanks!

Yep happy to loan it out, you have PM

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From the picture you posted it looks like the cantilever is riding very close to the cartridge body so I wonder if this maybe an issue. Suspension might have taken a knock or cantilever collapsed a little. Has the cartridge had a heavy landing on some vinyl at any stage?

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I assume you have removed the blue and then reconnected it. Just in case it didn’t engage properly. I have heard from others that they had not “clicked” it in place properly. Some also say that about 30 hours is needed for the blue to “settle”.
 

It is also possible that it may be a sub standard product therefore it is worth making contact with Ortofon. 

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Good point Hummer. Recheck the vtf with scales, don't rely on the counterweight markings, you may be running a tad heavy. 

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On 21/02/2021 at 18:27, Warszawa said:

Did you try adjusting the VTA, specifically raising the arm? 

Yes try this, say 1mm at a time .

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24 minutes ago, Marginal Gains said:

Some also say that about 30 hours is needed for the blue to “settle”.

Some also say that the manufacturer should receive some sort of award for producing, in the Blue and Red, two products that have done much to contribute to the reputation of vinyl as being an inferior medium.

Not that I would agree with that. I'd actually be far less polite :whistle:

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4 hours ago, rabski said:

Some also say that the manufacturer should receive some sort of award for producing, in the Blue and Red, two products that have done much to contribute to the reputation of vinyl as being an inferior medium.

Not that I would agree with that. I'd actually be far less polite :whistle:

How's the AT dealership going? :D

I agree the Red is a bit shonky, but the Blue is pretty good. And, yes, the Blue takes about 25-30 hrs to settle.

10 years ago the Blue was a real step-up from the AT95HE I'd been using.

With the advent of the re-vamped AT range a few years ago would I choose the lower 2M range again? Umm, maybe not. The AT's do have a better choice of stylii and for not much money.

That said, the Blue is a definite, and easy, upgrade to the Red.

Either the OP hates the sound of the 2M's or there is more amiss. I suspect the latter.

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7 hours ago, lazycat said:

How's the AT dealership going? :D

I agree the Red is a bit shonky, but the Blue is pretty good. And, yes, the Blue takes about 25-30 hrs to settle.

10 years ago the Blue was a real step-up from the AT95HE I'd been using.

With the advent of the re-vamped AT range a few years ago would I choose the lower 2M range again? Umm, maybe not. The AT's do have a better choice of stylii and for not much money.

That said, the Blue is a definite, and easy, upgrade to the Red.

Either the OP hates the sound of the 2M's or there is more amiss. I suspect the latter.

The dealership is going fine mate. One day I might earn enough commission to buy a 2M that doesn't make everything sound like a dirge.

Humour. The day I make money out of anything hifi related, my bank manager will faint.

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