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Something with scratches, itches and general interest in the topic.

Can someone tell me if swapping my current M140 with stand upgrade to Keltiks would be worthwhile or is this considered a side step? I would use an AEBi to drive them.

I have red some remarks here and there and the Keltiks seem to divide opinion, however these seem to be depending largely on the quality of amps and positioning, in this case the AEBi could work with SO and exakt on board.

Edited by Pennypacker
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After some days now and SOv2 running 🙌🏼 I have the following remarks/observations/scribbles.    IMHO it’s definitely an upgrade, not just a side step or matter of taste. There is however a smal

Well, I've only had the Keltiks up and running for a couple of days but already I'm very impressed. I'm using the same ASH source and AEB-I amplification as @Pennypacker. However, I switched from Nink

After much consideration and reading on the various forum until my eyes bled, I bit the bullet and after some driving and hard labour the Keltiks are now wobbly in place where normally the M140 reside

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It would mean a big change. Keltiks require 6 (preferably 8) channels of amplification and active crossovers which come in styles suitable for LK amps (mono) or later amps (stereo) or Klimax active Xover boxes. When set up and driven correctly they are an impressive speaker that I personally enjoyed for some years. They will have a different sound signature to what you will be used to - personally I never enjoyed the Majik 140's when I heard them as I found the 2k array a bit harsh. Better? Sideways? You would have to decide by listening. You are though looking at a 1990's design and as such they might end up being a very pleasant backwater in your musical journey forward. If you are looking for a change have you considered 242's - when driven with Klimax amps I have been very impressed by them.

PS - I have just reread your Q's and realised you are talking Exakt so my comments on xovers is not relevant. I have no experience of Exakt.

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Please don’t be offended by my comments. I never found the m140’s attractive however I was always intrigued by the majik isobariks.

I moved from aktiv kabers to aktiv 242’s and love the bass that I was missing with the kabers. It did take me a lot of work with placement and time to get used to the 3k array sound. It always made me feel that I should have tried the keltiks instead.

Recently I went back to the kabers and realized how detailed the 3k array is and how much I would miss it if it was gone. This has resulted in dropping the idea of keltiks (unless I find them at a throw away price ($500)) and realize that my next move will have to be the passive akubariks.

I’m sure the keltiks produce better bass and go way lower than the 242’s but I will say that if you are patient with the 242’s they are a fantastic speaker. I wish I had spent more and gotten the mark II’s as they are closer to the akubariks.

P.s - I have heard the 2k arrays and they lie smack between the older speakers and the 3k array speakers but they are not to my liking.

Good luck


mdsm/3 >> Akurate 4200/3200/3200 >> Aktiv Akurate 242 (mark 1) Silvers/K400

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Hi. I had Keltiks with aeb-i. It is amazing. I also had the 242, but in case of bass punch, deepness and power the 242 had no chance against the keltik. The 140 i have only heared at a dealer. They sound ok but not something special to me. 

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The 2K array sounds a bit ‘rough and ready’ in passive mode.

BUT take the 140’s Aktiv, and it solves that problem. 

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Fast forward to Keltiks with Hiquphon OW2 HF and SEAS M15CH002 mids. Spread wide, push hard up against the wall and mount on a very solid floor, leaving plenty of side wall space to breathe. Gently tame unwanted aberrant behaviour with suitable corrective measures (Space Optimisation). Ensure that Exakt signals are provided and recognised before electrifying with eight channels of high quality, high power juice. Finally, sit well back, relax and crank up the volume. Wow, this is about as good as it gets.

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Ok, thanks this far. Keltiks pop up now and then. I don’t need to sell the M140 direct so I can do a A/B.

If general opinion would be negative I would not bother.

I spoke to a guy once who had the Keltik aktiv via Mx100 amps without SO and he argued that the amps where out of breath, since I would use my AEBi this would be almost the same scenario from a power perspective, this makes me somewhat hesitant.

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Keltiks with AEBi should work great, though I never heard that by myself... I was told a few times from friends I trust.

Keltiks with x100 amps are running out of steam, thats right! Otherwise with AV5125s they rock! or Twins, or 🙄

Keltiks.2 („KillerKeltiks“ - Hiquphon Tweeter / SEAS mid) are much better in my opinion, but have other problems. To make a long run short: If I would build a Keltik eXakt sytem... it has the Tweeter mod for sure. As long as eXakt is involved I would not recommend the SEAS mid, as there are no matching filters afaik.

If I had to choose between 140/Keltik:, I would go for the modded Keltik  - It has simply more to offer imho

(...but I would go for KK or Sagatun and not for eXakt, but thats another question)

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Not to confuse you anymore. I know a guy who had keltiks driven by 4 twins with Klimax crossovers. He tried exakt for a weekend and returned the Klimax exakt crossovers. Decided to quit the linn speakers completely as he found exakt was not for him. His last note to me was that the most transparent speaker from Linn’s present line up was the akudorik but he wanted floorstanders with more bass.

Today he still speaks highly of the keltiks but has moved on to a passive setup with b&w 803 D3’s with 4 mono blocks. He still uses his Klimax DS and KK/1.


mdsm/3 >> Akurate 4200/3200/3200 >> Aktiv Akurate 242 (mark 1) Silvers/K400

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Akudoriks are my first option and are somewhat in my planning after the M140’s. I thought this up when passive Akudoriks where still around. Admittedly I never A/B them directly against the M140.

But again since the Keltiks keep popping up against acceptable prices and somewhat like the classic look, I’m contemplating one swapping them in for the M140.

Can somebody elaborate on the the weak points, is there any technical difference between the earlier black fronted ones and the later full veneers?

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Some exakt akudorik ( non kat) on the bay with hub. They have already failed to sell once you could sell the AEBi and the hub and get a mighty cheap pair of exakt speakers. 
 

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1 hour ago, Pennypacker said:

Can somebody elaborate on the the weak points

Of Keltiks? Finding the placement sweet spot is difficult. I found them almost unplayable with extended bass if I didn't use sound optimisation. With SO they were easily tamed and bass could be used fully extended. Its a bit like having a car with massive power (bass) and we all know power is nothing without control! The tweeters are an old design and do not have the clarity of more modern 3K arrays but they are smooth sounding. 

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21 minutes ago, entdgc said:

Of Keltiks? Finding the placement sweet spot is difficult. I found them almost unplayable with extended bass if I didn't use sound optimisation. With SO they were easily tamed and bass could be used fully extended. Its a bit like having a car with massive power (bass) and we all know power is nothing without control! The tweeters are an old design and do not have the clarity of more modern 3K arrays but they are smooth sounding. 

My M140s need SO, using SO for Keltiks would be a no brainer for me. I’m looking for something to check when purchasing, they are getting a bit old now. do I need to check the inside woofer for sogging or other faults? Which tweeter generation would be best? Etc.
 

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2 hours ago, kampak said:

Keltiks with AEBi should work great, though I never heard that by myself... I was told a few times from friends I trust.

Keltiks with x100 amps are running out of steam, thats right! Otherwise with AV5125s they rock! or Twins, or 🙄

Keltiks.2 („KillerKeltiks“ - Hiquphon Tweeter / SEAS mid) are much better in my opinion, but have other problems. To make a long run short: If I would build a Keltik eXakt sytem... it has the Tweeter mod for sure. As long as eXakt is involved I would not recommend the SEAS mid, as there are no matching filters afaik.

If I had to choose between 140/Keltik:, I would go for the modded Keltik  - It has simply more to offer imho

(...but I would go for KK or Sagatun and not for eXakt, but thats another question)

I really liked the sound quality of Kampaks Keltiks, when I visited you to do SO. I know you now have different speakers.

‘When I was visiting one of the guys in Scotland with Keltiks, he had swapped out his speaker drivers to create killer Keltiks as well.

‘The speaker drivers in the Keltiks  with the Hiquphone tweeters and Seas mids, no longer had the same efficiency, and it was extremely difficult to do SO with them. I finally had success when the owner mentioned that he had a 3dB attenuators that we could add to the Seas mids, and then SO was able to do its magic.

‘One of the guys here converted his Keltiks to Exakt, with the help of Philbo guiding him through the process for the Exakt filters. AFAIK, he still has his Keltiks, but now driven with Lejonklou amplification.

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A couple of other things to add regarding modified Keltiks…

As Paul says, there can be a sensitivity mis-match with the SEAS and Hiquphons. There are two Hiquphon units, OW1 and OW2. The latter is very close in sensitivity to the SEAS unit, whereas the OW1 has a lower sensitivity and requires the mids to be attenuated. This is the reason I chose the OW2/SEAS combination.

For the same reasons Kampak suggests, I was dubious about using the SEAS/OW2 combination with Exakt but I now have access to Exakt Design so I can produce tailored filters.

However, I have so far found that, perhaps surprisingly (or maybe not!) I still prefer the standard 007/ 038 filter to anything I have created, and I think there are various reasons for this:

1)      Customised filters can only be used with SO1 and I find SO2, with Keltiks in my room is just better, regardless.

2)      Exakt design is extremely flexible and capable but it is very much open to experimentation and offers a myriad of adjustments. I haven’t yet homed in on an ideal solution and am still learning in a self-taught capacity.

3)      The Keltiks are unusual animals. The standard crossover points are at 119 Hz (very low, subwoofer territory) and 2.4 kHz, I believe.  When measuring the impedance response of the bass drivers (required in order to extract various T/S parameters used in the Exakt filter calculations), I am getting very consistent and near identical results for all 4 bass drivers but the results are somewhat unexpected – see below. The responses are measured with the drivers mounted in position and the resonance impedance peaks are occur at a higher frequency than I anticipated. The calculation for Qms is accordingly very high, and maybe this accounts for the Keltiks fast dynamic bass response, albeit held within a constrained bandwidth for the isobaric drivers. Notice there are two peaks, anticipated for reflex ports but not closed box. This must be due to one driver acting as a passive Helmholtz resonator when either of the others is measured in-situ. This will not occur when real signals are applied to both drivers. All in all, this makes interpretation a little difficult.

4)      The impedance curve analysis for the SEAS and OW2’s are straightforward to interpret and are as expected.

Earlier last year, I was liaising with Sunbeam, but unfortunately due to lockdown restrictions we have not been able to progress, but nonetheless, I remain optimistic on this front. Perhaps later this year we can get together and provide something more concrete via his separate venture.

Anyway, all good fun, and the Exakt driven modified Keltiks very obviously exceeds the performance of the old analogue filter version, in my case.

1021095339_keltikbassimp.JPG.77215ea9eee2dd271e43c234a5d3735e.JPG

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