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Keltik vs M140


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1 hour ago, fredbatch said:

Hi Mike,

That all looks good to me, just as @pennypacker describes. I’ve not actually used an AEB-I, but as long as you don’t connect exakt bass output (channels 4 and 8) to the tweeters you can’t really do any harm.

If you do ever change the Keltik drivers (mid or HF), I would say Hiquphon OW1 with standard mids is a marked advancement over 038/2 (and OW2 with SEAS M15CH002 mids a bigger advancement again, notwithstanding Exakt crossover solution/resolution).

When it comes on song, the tight, punchy, extended and underpinning effortless bass you will get in conjunction with S02 (especially with speakers close to front wall) is something of an eye-opener compared with most other speakers I have heard. Have fun.

How close to the wall is close?

Regarding OW1 which exaktfilter to use?

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Hard to photgraph what is (almost) not there, but this is how my Keltik look like. The cloth is splitting somewhat at some edge so perhaps it is somewhat looser than yours?
EC828694-922B-4250-8F25-B464D41E9C34.jpeg.77741167a1edd5ed49eb63aed12ba404.jpeg

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@SnapperMike, @Pennypacker

Unfortunately, the SEAS unit is not a direct replacement. It fits snugly in the baffle rebate but the number of fixing holes and pitch diameters are different, so either the baffle needs new fixing holes drilled (and the old ones filled) or the SEAS frame needs new holes drilled to match the existing baffle fixings. I’ve got all the design details and templates if you ever need them. The consensus of those who have done this maintain that it is a worthwhile improvement, including myself. But we would say that, wouldn’t we!  I originally replaced mine because of an over driven and damaged voice coil. The SEAS unit is a well specified, high-power handling teeter with good matching characteristics for the Keltik design as far as I can tell. However, there are no guarantees with this type of thing and the integrity of the whole design is more important than any individual driver. With the original analogue filters it was possible to measure-listen-analyse-adjust to achieve a good balance with the SEAS/OW2 and Exakt ups the game further.

I’m fairly certain that @Sunbeamgls has an Exakt filter configured for Keltik SEAS+OW1 and I have been working on an Exakt filter for Keltik SEAS+OW2. However, third party filters can only be used with SO1 at present. To date I still prefer the standard Keltik (007/038 + SO2) to my filter version of Keltik (SEAS+OW2+SO1), but I am about to continue with further measurements/listening tests to try and rectify this. It will be better when third party Exakt filters can be used in conjunction with SO2.

Regarding Keltik placement to walls, providing the front wall is solid, I find a gap of about 100-150mm between the wall and the back of the cabinet yields the best results-all to do with boundary reinforcement and cancellation patterns. I also have a separation between speakers (ctr-ctr) of about 3m with asymmetric side wall clearance of approx. 1.5m/1.25m, the speakers being placed on the longest room boundary.

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, fredbatch said:

@SnapperMike, @Pennypacker

Unfortunately, the SEAS unit is not a direct replacement. It fits snugly in the baffle rebate but the number of fixing holes and pitch diameters are different, so either the baffle needs new fixing holes drilled (and the old ones filled) or the SEAS frame needs new holes drilled to match the existing baffle fixings. I’ve got all the design details and templates if you ever need them. The consensus of those who have done this maintain that it is a worthwhile improvement, including myself. But we would say that, wouldn’t we!  I originally replaced mine because of an over driven and damaged voice coil. The SEAS unit is a well specified, high-power handling teeter with good matching characteristics for the Keltik design as far as I can tell. However, there are no guarantees with this type of thing and the integrity of the whole design is more important than any individual driver. With the original analogue filters it was possible to measure-listen-analyse-adjust to achieve a good balance with the SEAS/OW2 and Exakt ups the game further.

I’m fairly certain that @Sunbeamgls has an Exakt filter configured for Keltik SEAS+OW1 and I have been working on an Exakt filter for Keltik SEAS+OW2. However, third party filters can only be used with SO1 at present. To date I still prefer the standard Keltik (007/038 + SO2) to my filter version of Keltik (SEAS+OW2+SO1), but I am about to continue with further measurements/listening tests to try and rectify this. It will be better when third party Exakt filters can be used in conjunction with SO2.

Regarding Keltik placement to walls, providing the front wall is solid, I find a gap of about 100-150mm between the wall and the back of the cabinet yields the best results-all to do with boundary reinforcement and cancellation patterns. I also have a separation between speakers (ctr-ctr) of about 3m with asymmetric side wall clearance of approx. 1.5m/1.25m, the speakers being placed on the longest room boundary.

Excellent, thanks for the useful tips @fredbatch much appreciated.

I now have my 'new' Keltiks set up and playing very nicely from the AEB-I. I configured as both you and @Pennypackersaid regarding speaker cabling.

One thing I'm not sure of...in Exakt filters in Konfig I'm given the option of using either mid 007 or mid 081 with my 038/2 tweeters. I know my Keltik is a late 2000 model so I've selected 081 without any real authority. Should I remove my mid drive to see what it actually is? If so, is the way to gain access the same as the Ninkas?

I've sent an email to Linn but haven't yet heard back.

Edited by SnapperMike
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36 minutes ago, SnapperMike said:

Excellent, thanks for the useful tips @fredbatch much appreciated.

I now have my 'new' Keltiks set up and playing very nicely from the AEB-I. I configured as both you and @Pennypackersaid regarding speaker cabling.

One thing I'm not sure of...in Exakt filters in Konfig I'm given the option of using either mid 007 or mid 081 with my 038/2 tweeters. I know my Keltik is a late 2000 model so I've selected 081 without any real authority. Should I remove my mid drive to see what it actually is? If so, is the way to gain access the same as the Ninkas?

I've sent an email to Linn but haven't yet heard back.

Mike - Regardless of vintage, 007 may have been replaced at some time by 081. Chances are though, that it will be 007. If you post an image of the front baffle showing the mid driver I can confirm which one it is for you.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, fredbatch said:

Mike - Regardless of vintage, 007 may have been replaced at some time by 081. Chances are though, that it will be 007. If you post an image of the front baffle showing the mid driver I can confirm which one it is for you.

Thank you @fredbatch I attach a pic here:

The dust cap is slightly dimpled.

IMG_5527.JPG

Edited by SnapperMike
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Sorry Mike, still can't be certain from the photo. If you take the driver out and examine the frame you will be able to confirm which it is. If it is a cast frame it is an 007 model, if it is a pressed steel frame it will be an 081. Here's an image of a repurposed 007 I have used for a separate DIY project; note the cast flange.

388696423_IMG_0177(1).JPG.29a36a41ada2d4c9bb17ebbbd17d6477.JPG

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6 minutes ago, fredbatch said:

Sorry Mike, still can't be certain from the photo. If you take the driver out and examine the frame you will be able to confirm which it is. If it is a cast frame it is an 007 model, if it is a pressed steel frame it will be an 081. Here's an image of a repurposed 007 I have used for a separate DIY project; note the cast flange.

388696423_IMG_0177(1).JPG.29a36a41ada2d4c9bb17ebbbd17d6477.JPG

Thanks @fredbatch I'll have a look. Do I remove it in the same way I've removed bass drivers from my Ninkas in the past? 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, SnapperMike said:

Thanks @fredbatch I'll have a look. Do I remove it in the same way I've removed bass drivers from my Ninkas in the past? 

I can’t comment on the Ninka, but i think it uses the same system as the M140, namely a rubber ring in a cut circulair recess. The Keltik midrange driver is screwed underneath the rubber cover-ring, in my case the rubber cover was glued to the speaker-rim. 

Edited by Pennypacker
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Posted (edited)

Well, I've only had the Keltiks up and running for a couple of days but already I'm very impressed. I'm using the same ASH source and AEB-I amplification as @Pennypacker. However, I switched from Ninkas rather than M140s.

I completely agree with his description of these speakers producing a "solid wall of sound". It's as though the speakers almost disappear as I'm not really aware of where the music is coming from. There's no focal point to the source of the music like I had with the Ninkas. The soundstage is deeper and taller and certainly more three dimensional. I'm not sure if the soundstage is any wider than the Ninkas as I always liked the wide stage they created. I find it very easy to follow the different instruments and vocals are clear. There's so much more space and atmosphere between instruments. The sound is smooth, relaxed and authoritative.

One observation, whether good or bad, I’m not yet sure, but vocals appear a little more recessed. Certainly more so than vocals produced by the Ninkas. Vocals are now part of and on the same plane as the music rather than leaping to the fore. Perhaps this is one reason that helps give the speakers their relaxed feel? In comparison the Ninkas sound more dynamic, snappy and upfront.

The extended deep bass is excellent which presumably is the reason that they sound better at low volumes compared to the Ninkas. Perfect for late night listening when the neighbours are asleep. I'm pleased about this because the Isobarik bass was the thing that attracted me to these giant speakers in the first place. And giants they are! Not much taller than Ninkas but almost twice as wide and significantly deeper and two and half times heavier. They are definitely a two-man lift. They seem to just about fit my 4x6m room and thankfully I have a high ceiling. 

I have definitely noticed that the listening sweet spot position has got much bigger too. Before, with the Ninkas, there was a definite spot on the sofa directly between both speakers that gave optimum sound. If you moved a couple of feet away from this sweet spot either left or right it was obviously detrimental to the sound. Now three people could share the same sofa and all have a great musical experience whilst still socially distancing.

I've performed a basic SO2 profile but will perhaps look to tweak that after more listening. Currently everything is set to Linn's calculated optimisation with the Preference slider at 80-20%.

All in all I'm very happy with my new purchase. But I've not heard Akudoriks yet!

Mike.

Edited by SnapperMike
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Posted (edited)

I second your observations on the recessed vocals and bigger sweet spot, never added that to my first reports. Glad that that the Keltiks are working out for you @SnapperMike 

I was/am on the hunt for 212 or Akudoriks myself also, but since the behemoths are in my living room this kind of cooled down.

Edited by Pennypacker
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Posted (edited)
20 hours ago, Pennypacker said:

I second your observations on the recessed vocals and bigger sweet spot, never added that to my first reports. Glad that that the Keltiks are working out for you @SnapperMike 

I was/am on the hunt for 212 or Akudoriks myself also, but since the behemoths are in my living room this kind of cooled down.

Very interesting @Pennypackerthat we are experiencing the same sonics. OK, we have the same equipment but our rooms must be very different. Maybe that's the beauty of SO, it corrects so we all hear the same. I have not experimented with SO beyond the default Linn optimisation. I still have the Preference slider at 80-20%. I will listen for a few days and then perhaps tweak. I don't imagine I'll be looking for more bass!

Mike.

Edited by SnapperMike
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Have you torqued the drivers on these new old speakers? Highly recommended if it hasn't happened yet. Certainly before adjusting SO.

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1 minute ago, akamatsu said:

Have you torqued the drivers on these new old speakers? Highly recommended if it hasn't happened yet. Certainly before adjusting SO.

I did not torque with a special tool but tightened up the lot, things where quite loose here and there.

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