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Quest for a better sound starts in May.


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19 minutes ago, tuga said:

What you really mean is that Frequency response curves tell you bugger all about a speaker's abilities

I understand that people who can't interpret graphs have no use for them but for those who do graphs provide a lot of information, enough in fact for me to decide whether a speaker is worth going to all the trouble of actually listening...

But you can change the frequency response in many cases, so what do they tell you.

Do they tell you the cause of the problem?

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Personal view is the shortlist of speakers is more of a side step than a major step up.   I guess it depends on how many steps you want to make to get to the level you desire but IMO taking time to sa

I think that your title suggesting better sound is one that can lead you in two possible directions; either some incremental improvements to your existing kit or a more radical change, and whichever w

I am wondering why Richer Sounds. They seem to stock modest products and in the few shops that I went to they had appalling demo rooms. Is there not a good independent near you who might more likely h

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1 hour ago, StingRay said:

But you can change the frequency response in many cases, so what do they tell you.

Let me quote myself:

On 12/04/2021 at 11:37, tuga said:

The first thing I'll say is that a measurement relates to a specific parameter of performance, even though it may be able to provide information about other aspects (f.e. a blip in the impedance plot will tell that there's a resonance, either cabinet (usually between 100 and 400Hz) or driver related), but by itself it is incapable of fully characterising performance.

.

1 hour ago, StingRay said:

Do they tell you the cause of the problem?

No. You must learn a bit about speakers and then go on a hunt for potential causes.

Sometimes they are obvious (i.e. Special 40 woofer low-passed at 2kHz with a shallow slope filter) sometimes not.

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Been having a scan through various active speakers. Richer Sounds supply a good range from entry-level models to well over 2k mark. The one that takes my fancy are the Acoustic Energy AE 1 actives, around the £1200 mark. Add a good sub and could be me sorted... assuming I can use the Leema as a preamp.

I'm certainly moving towards smaller monitors with a sub, whether it's traditional passive or active.

Edited by plasticpenguin
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3 hours ago, HugoZ said:

Precisely what do they tell you?

Where music reproduction is concerned, timing anomalies are far more objectionable to the auditory system than frequency response errors. With the design of their Supernait 3 integrated amplifier, even Naim have come to realise that.

Well, amongst other things they tell you how well balanced the speaker is tonally, how well the drivers blend, and if there are any obvious aberrations in response.  With practice, one can recognise how midrange dips can give an illusion of depth, and how high frequency peaks might sound ‘airy’.  

I’m not sure what you mean by timing errors in your example, and since I thought Naim majored on timing (as part of PRaT), I wonder why whatever it is has only just been realised.  Perhaps you can explain?

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49 minutes ago, plasticpenguin said:

Been having a scan through various active speakers. Richer Sounds supply a good range from entry-level models to well over 2k mark. The one that takes my fancy are the Acoustic Energy AE 1 actives, around the £1200 mark. Add a good sub and could be me sorted... assuming I can use the Leema as a preamp.

I'm certainly moving towards smaller monitors with a sub, whether it's traditional passive or active.

Quite a few less expensive ‘active’ speakers may in fact simply be ‘powered’ rather than truly active.  The AE1 are genuine, however, and are an analogue design, unlike (say) the KEF LSX and LS50 wireless.  Anything less than those AEs I think you’d find wanting in subtlety and refinement, compared with your amp and PMCs.  

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59 minutes ago, plasticpenguin said:

Been having a scan through various active speakers. Richer Sounds supply a good range from entry-level models to well over 2k mark. The one that takes my fancy are the Acoustic Energy AE 1 actives, around the £1200 mark. Add a good sub and could be me sorted... assuming I can use the Leema as a preamp.

I'm certainly moving towards smaller monitors with a sub, whether it's traditional passive or active.

DALI-Callisto-2c-Wireless-Speakers-With-BLUOS-Internet-Streaming-Hub 

Edited by t1no
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12 hours ago, plasticpenguin said:

Been having a scan through various active speakers. Richer Sounds supply a good range from entry-level models to well over 2k mark. The one that takes my fancy are the Acoustic Energy AE 1 actives, around the £1200 mark. Add a good sub and could be me sorted... assuming I can use the Leema as a preamp.

I'm certainly moving towards smaller monitors with a sub, whether it's traditional passive or active.

That doesn't sound like a bad idea at all if you go for active. It could work very well.

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It may be useful/helpful to think of the kind of system you'd want if you had considerably more money and what that gives you. That might clarify what "good" looks like. Its not clear to me what's wrong with your current system and what you want through an upgrade.

I've got to a place where I like my system and the only upgrade would be more of the same i.e. from the SCM40s (recently upgraded from Mk1 to Mk2) to active 40s or 50s. I don't want anything different now, just more/better of what I already have.

Are you wanting more of the same in some audio aspects, or different aspects, or a different balance?

What's good in your current system and you'd like to keep, and what does it lack and you want to introduce?

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2 hours ago, Bodgit said:

It may be useful/helpful to think of the kind of system you'd want if you had considerably more money and what that gives you. That might clarify what "good" looks like. Its not clear to me what's wrong with your current system and what you want through an upgrade.

I've got to a place where I like my system and the only upgrade would be more of the same i.e. from the SCM40s (recently upgraded from Mk1 to Mk2) to active 40s or 50s. I don't want anything different now, just more/better of what I already have.

Are you wanting more of the same in some audio aspects, or different aspects, or a different balance?

What's good in your current system and you'd like to keep, and what does it lack and you want to introduce?

A) Totally happy with the sound of the system 'as is'. No weak links I can find. Just want to improve what I have already.

B) Whether it's a replacement amp or speakers it needs to appease Mrs. P. She thinks the PMCs on stands are fugly. So a nice small speaker with a sub -- she'll then think it's only half fugly. 

C) Can't go large as the room won't take it, and I don't want anything too imposing. Compact floorstanders or standmounts are the only solution.

D) Whatever direction I end up going in must be more than a subtle improvement in terms of sound quality. That can only be weighed up against the price or VFM

Edited by plasticpenguin
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I few suggestions at about the same price ;

ATC SCM 19

PROAC SM 100

NEAT MINISTRA

PMC TWENTY 21i 

GRAHAM LS/6 

Or even .... possibly my next speaker purchase....

LARSON 4.3 (updated 4.2 just released)

Have only skimmed this thread so apologies if not relevant or already dismissed any of the above

For what it's worth the MA GOLD 100 / PL 100 certainly "look" good from the reviews, but haven't heard them.

Would also love to here ...

EXAVIAN PERLA ESCLUSIVA , retail at under  2K but on line only and no returns so bit of a gamble 

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On 12/04/2021 at 16:04, plasticpenguin said:

Having owned speakers of 96 db their bass was as limp as a damp sock. Very good speakers for the money let down by the LFs. 

IMV a punchy amp doesn't have a problem with bass depth or punch. If you want to p##s the neighbours off then I would use my old 96db speakers, which could entertain the neighbourhood.

So no, I don't agree with you.

On 12/04/2021 at 16:25, StingRay said:

Which 96db speakers did you have?

Yes I'm wondering that too?

Maybe I've missed platicpenguin's response amongst all the smoke created by frequency response graphs etc?

Or maybe he's keeping this info to himself? Which he is is, of course fully entitled to do.

High efficiency speakers do tend to need huge woofers in order to have "average" or better bass. Hoffman's Iron Law and all that...

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7 hours ago, plasticpenguin said:

A) Totally happy with the sound of the system 'as is'. No weak links I can find. Just want to improve what I have already.

B) Whether it's a replacement amp or speakers it needs to appease Mrs. P. She thinks the PMCs on stands are fugly. So a nice small speaker with a sub -- she'll then think it's only half fugly. 

C) Can't go large as the room won't take it, and I don't want anything too imposing. Compact floorstanders or standmounts are the only solution.

D) Whatever direction I end up going in must be more than a subtle improvement in terms of sound quality. That can only be weighed up against the price or VFM

With regard to waf and standmounts my wife loves the looks of my Dali Epicon 2's. I've just added a small sub to them and love the combination. The veneers and finish on them  are really good. If you're lucky you might get a used pair for 2.5-3k. My room is about 18ft x 14ft. Good luck with your search, 

Cheers Ady 

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2 hours ago, lindsayt said:

Yes I'm wondering that too?

Maybe I've missed platicpenguin's response amongst all the smoke created by frequency response graphs etc?

Or maybe he's keeping this info to himself? Which he is is, of course fully entitled to do.

High efficiency speakers do tend to need huge woofers in order to have "average" or better bass. Hoffman's Iron Law and all that...

Not mentioned these speakers not because of secrecy but they are irrelevant to the thread and the current situation. They were (and still are) Wharfedale E20. They were good speakers, the 'E' stood for efficiency, and were better suited to affordable valve amps of the time. 

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3 hours ago, lindsayt said:

Yes I'm wondering that too?

Maybe I've missed platicpenguin's response amongst all the smoke created by frequency response graphs etc?

Or maybe he's keeping this info to himself? Which he is is, of course fully entitled to do.

High efficiency speakers do tend to need huge woofers in order to have "average" or better bass. Hoffman's Iron Law and all that...

Many high sensitivity 12" or 15" woofers have a very high resonance frequency Fs, The trade-off for high sensitivity is limited bass extension, you can't have both.

That is why 3-way horns (f.e. Klipschorn) tend to produce little low- and hardly any sub-bass.

Avantgarde's workaround is a powered bass module. Or some giant bass-horn modules.

Edited by tuga
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Posted (edited)
16 hours ago, Rayymondo said:

I few suggestions at about the same price ;

ATC SCM 19

PROAC SM 100

NEAT MINISTRA

PMC TWENTY 21i 

GRAHAM LS/6 

Or even .... possibly my next speaker purchase....

LARSON 4.3 (updated 4.2 just released)

Have only skimmed this thread so apologies if not relevant or already dismissed any of the above

For what it's worth the MA GOLD 100 / PL 100 certainly "look" good from the reviews, but haven't heard them.

Would also love to here ...

EXAVIAN PERLA ESCLUSIVA , retail at under  2K but on line only and no returns so bit of a gamble 

Thanks for the suggestions. Problem is the speakers need to sound good at lower volumes, so speakers around the 4 ohms such as those Neats probably need a ballsy amp to hear at their best. 

ProAcs, so I've been told, sound best with a valve amp or a smooth SS amp.

Heard the PMC Twenty 23 -- very good but hate the look of them.

My list for so, which will be shortened no doubt:

Dynaudio 40s.

Dali Rubicon 2

Monitor Audio Gold 100 (again might not excel at low levels)

 Active speaker of some description.

Or may just plump for a Harbeth P3 with a sub, or something similar such as PMC DB1i with a sub.

That all said, it might just need a change of amp.

Edited by plasticpenguin
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