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User review of the new Klimax Organik DSM


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2 hours ago, Paulssurround said:

One of my friends here has a Klimax LP-12 and an SME-30, which I got to hear simultaneously. He also has an Akurate LP-12, but that is another story.

‘At the time, 2 years ago,  SME-30 can pull more detail off the vinyl than the Klimax LP-12, and to some audiophiles this might be important.

‘On the SME-30 I could hear the bow slide over the strings and the creak of the wood on the violins 🎻 in great detail, and thought that was impressive, but it sounded very clinical.

The Klimax LP-12 conveyed the emotional impact of the music in a way that the SME couldn’t match. Playing the same tracks on the LP-12 revealed how the violin was crying with emotion. and the full impact of the music came across.

‘Since then, Linn has engineered the Karousel bearing. Because of Covid restrictions I have not been able to visit again with the Karousel bearing installed on his Klimax LP-12, but I can only imagine that the LP-12 thoroughly spanks the SME 30

I do have vinyl rips of the same song played on all 3 turntables, and the difference is significant 

Yes I sold my some 30 for the lp12 it was more emotional 

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On 01/05/2021 at 17:53, Nrwatson said:

Yes I sold my some 30 for the lp12 it was more emotional 

Prior to seeing this thread I had heard of SME but was not familiar with the SME-30. So i had a look, and from an engineering perspective it certainly looks impressive. Then I chanced upon a write up of the SME-30/12, a bigger version that accommodates a range of tonearm lengths and at that point they totally "lost" me. Not because they offer an option to accommodate different tonearm lengths, and not because I have any doubt that it is a splendid turntable, but in their statement that this improved the performance of the "standard" deck by 27%.

For me, this goes against everything that hi-fi should be about. Most of the songs that I (and I suspect many of us) listen to are based on: love, lost love, heartbreak, lust, success, failure, etc, etc... So, those are the emotions that I want my hifi to convey to me. And this is one of the areas that I feel Linn (and other manufacturers) have got right, over and above others. I recently upgraded my (nothing special) LP12 to close to Akurate level and at no time of listening to any of my music have I thought to myself "gosh, this sounds at least 27% better than it did before"!

For me, listening to music is about connecting with the emotions that created it, not about percentage improvements. Just my two-pennyworth!

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42 minutes ago, Andyt916 said:

Prior to seeing this thread I had heard of SME but was not familiar with the SME-30. So i had a look, and from an engineering perspective it certainly looks impressive. Then I chanced upon a write up of the SME-30/12, a bigger version that accommodates a range of tonearm lengths and at that point they totally "lost" me. Not because they offer an option to accommodate different tonearm lengths, and not because I have any doubt that it is a splendid turntable, but in their statement that this improved the performance of the "standard" deck by 27%.

For me, this goes against everything that hi-fi should be about. Most of the songs that I (and I suspect many of us) listen to are based on: love, lost love, heartbreak, lust, success, failure, etc, etc... So, those are the emotions that I want my hifi to convey to me. And this is one of the areas that I feel Linn (and other manufacturers) have got right, over and above others. I recently upgraded my (nothing special) LP12 to close to Akurate level and at no time of listening to any of my music have I thought to myself "gosh, this sounds at least 27% better than it did before"!

For me, listening to music is about connecting with the emotions that created it, not about percentage improvements. Just my two-pennyworth!

As I mentioned above, the SME is able to extract more detail off of vinyl than the LP-12, but to my ears is very clinical and not emotional.

The LP-12 will convey the emotion in spades , and provide toe tapping, singalongability and allow you to bust your best dance moves. 🥳🎉💃🕺

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4 hours ago, Andyt916 said:

...but in their statement that this improved the performance of the "standard" deck by 27%.

I’m afraid I can’t be bothered to look this up, but I suspect it is the technically correct reduction in tracing distortion from a 12” arm over a 9” one.  They’ve been making both lengths since I was a lad, and I now get a pension, so it’s well-established from the geometry.  (Quite separately, longer arms may have disadvantages too, but I don’t think one can dispute the 27%)

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22 hours ago, Nopiano said:

I’m afraid I can’t be bothered to look this up, but I suspect it is the technically correct reduction in tracing distortion from a 12” arm over a 9” one.  They’ve been making both lengths since I was a lad, and I now get a pension, so it’s well-established from the geometry.  (Quite separately, longer arms may have disadvantages too, but I don’t think one can dispute the 27%)

As an FYI, this is the write up that I mentioned:

SME Model 30/12 Turntable - Analogue Seduction

I don't doubt the veracity of the 27% claim, nor doubt in any way the quality of the turntable / longer arm: it looks like a quality piece of kit. Nor do I cast any aspersions on anyone who wants to measure the quality of their hifi on objective measurements. It's just the case that, for me, how it sounds to my - old but not quite pensionable (more's the pity) - ears wins over measurements.

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16 minutes ago, Andyt916 said:

It's just the case that, for me, how it sounds to my - old but not quite pensionable (more's the pity) - ears wins over measurements.

That’s completely understandable, Andy, and I don’t disagree with that approach.  It would crazy not to at this, or frankly any, price.  I was mainly trying to say that the 27% wasn’t some arbitrary measure of ‘quality’ as I thought you’d inferred, but a long-established geometrical one.  
If you’ve ever read about the amazing SAT arms, the designer seems to favour 9” over 12”, though we are going way off topic, so apologies to @jonbsbd.

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Posted (edited)

The 27% “improvement” of SME’s 12” tonearms relates to end of side distortion, which I can confirm is far less prevalent from the V-12 than the standard Series V.  This really makes a difference to me and is the reason why I chose my turntable (a SME 20/12) over an LP12.  As for the lack of musicality claimed by so many, I simply don’t hear it, especially through my otherwise wholly Linn system. Much as l love my KDS/3 and CD12, the SME remains the most involving source I’ve ever heard. I’m a big admirer of the LP12 too but, while Linn remains bonded to 9” tonearms, I’ll stick with my SME.

Edited by Fitter Stoke
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6 minutes ago, Nopiano said:

That’s completely understandable, Andy, and I don’t disagree with that approach.  It would crazy not to at this, or frankly any, price.  I was mainly trying to say that the 27% wasn’t some arbitrary measure of ‘quality’ as I thought you’d inferred, but a long-established geometrical one.  
If you’ve ever read about the amazing SAT arms, the designer seems to favour 9” over 12”, though we are going way off topic, so apologies to @jonbsbd.

Thanks Nick. 

Whilst it's not something that I look for in listening/evaluating my own set-up it is without doubt interesting and valuable knowledge.

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36 minutes ago, pdcman said:

Wow, this thread has really wandered off topic. 🧐

Welcome to our world @pdcman - no lane discipline here.

’troll

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On 01/05/2021 at 15:21, Paulssurround said:

One of my friends here has a Klimax LP-12 and an SME-30, which I got to hear simultaneously. He also has an Akurate LP-12, but that is another story.

‘At the time, 2 years ago,  SME-30 can pull more detail off the vinyl than the Klimax LP-12, and to some audiophiles this might be important.

‘On the SME-30 I could hear the bow slide over the strings and the creak of the wood on the violins 🎻 in great detail, and thought that was impressive, but it sounded very clinical.

The Klimax LP-12 conveyed the emotional impact of the music in a way that the SME couldn’t match. Playing the same tracks on the LP-12 revealed how the violin was crying with emotion. and the full impact of the music came across.

‘Since then, Linn has engineered the Karousel bearing. Because of Covid restrictions I have not been able to visit again with the Karousel bearing installed on his Klimax LP-12, but I can only imagine that the LP-12 thoroughly spanks the SME 30

I do have vinyl rips of the same song played on all 3 turntables, and the difference is significant 

Your remarks remind me of the time that Ivor T told me in all seriousness that his diesel Subaru estate car was faster than my 911 Carrera S. I nodded, smiled, and then took Gilad out for a drive in it.

In 2013, I was invited to bring some of my records to the factory to listen to them through their top "whisky barrel" anniversary LP12. I already had the SME 30 at home, and I knew what was on those records. I was left alone in that room for about an hour, and played several tracks. I still have my SME/ATC setup today.

Linn's a company driven by marketing, they do not listen to rival decks, and so they have no idea how far behind they are. The products look the part, but don't compete.

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Posted (edited)
On 01/05/2021 at 15:21, Paulssurround said:

SME-30 can pull more detail off the vinyl than the Klimax LP-12, and to some audiophiles this might be important.

‘On the SME-30 I could hear the bow slide over the strings and the creak of the wood on the violins 🎻 in great detail, and thought that was impressive, but it sounded very clinical.

The Klimax LP-12 conveyed the emotional impact of the music in a way that the SME couldn’t match. Playing the same tracks on the LP-12 revealed how the violin was crying with emotion. and the full impact of the music came across.

I find it interesting how some interpret “more detail” (no criticism of @Paulssurround his words were just a handy quote to hang this on)

My counter observation would be that decks like the SME aren’t as pitch accurate as the LP12 and emphasise  certain frequencies* in relation to others, giving the appearance of being more detailed. Different doesn’t always mean better, as Paul goes on to say.

Edit - * please note that this is my opinion and is not based on any measurements that I have taken or observed.


However, each to his own, it’s their money.

’troll

Edited by Moomintroll
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3 hours ago, Moomintroll said:

My counter observation would be that decks like the SME aren’t as pitch accurate as the LP12 and emphasise  certain frequencies in relation to others, giving the appearance of being more detailed.

Are you serious?

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4 hours ago, Moomintroll said:

My counter observation would be that decks like the SME aren’t as pitch accurate as the LP12 and emphasise  certain frequencies in relation to others, giving the appearance of being more detailed. 

Might I ask how that observation was made?

Regards Andrew 

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