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Puritan Mains Cables


George 47

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Nativebon said:

I choose what I put in my body, I choose the option of keeping my body healthy.

Are you kidding? So you prefer to risk suffering from a fatal and highly contagious virus rather than any side effects from a vaccine? You want to put yourself first, not your family and friends?

Edited by TIU
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I like to keep a relatively open mind about most things, but as many know, my background is pure science. I don't like the idea that because someone has no direct personal experience of something, they are somehow barred from having any valid opinion about it. It is perfectly possible to make a valid statement about something based on the science behind it. However, any scientist worth anything will normally add a caveat about 'based on current understanding', or similar.

Blanket statements about cables having no effect are not supported by evidence, or actually by science either. However, the extent to which the known effects may have any audible effect is another matter. Like it or not, psychological effects are also well known and documented, and nobody is immune to them. FWIW, I use mains cables with relatively 'serious' connectors and with screened, OCC cable. Whether they improve the sound or whether I hear improcvements because I anticipate them frankly is immaterial. If I perceive a positive effect, then they're working for me and the cost relative to the system is more than reasonable.

As for the vaccine, it's really simple. The science is known and based on developments over decades. The few months taken for the development is not in the least 'scary', as the underlying principles and basis are well established. As with anything, it's a numbers game, but here, the numbers are so ridiculously skewed towards vaccination that any other idea is frankly stupid, and I make no apology for saying so. Even if you are young and healthy, I believe the numbers are tens of thousands of times greater likelihood of fatality through COVID than through the vaccine. As age increases, so do the numbers.

Of course, the decision as to whether to be vaccinated is up to individuals. Much as is the decision of whether to jump into a tank of unfed sharks. Either way, I doubt anyone here will be willing to jump in and help.

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11 minutes ago, rabski said:

FWIW, I use mains cables with relatively 'serious' connectors and with screened, OCC cable. Whether they improve the sound or whether I hear improvements because I anticipate them frankly is immaterial.

I have some screened OCD cable, which I can thoroughly recommend. :geek: 

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38 minutes ago, rabski said:

I don't like the idea that because someone has no direct personal experience of something, they are somehow barred from having any valid opinion about it.

Straw man argument? 

I don't like the idea of someone with no direct experience and no relevant scientific background entirely rejecting someone else's direct experience, although it seems to be a popular hobby online. I've seen this on many forums and on Facebook groups whenever cables are mentioned, although I've also seen moderators there telling people to just ignore threads if they have nothing to add other than snide comments.

55 minutes ago, rabski said:

If I perceive a positive effect, then they're working for me

And that's all that really matters.

I have no idea why people get so worked up about this. If you don't believe it can make a difference and you've no interest in trying it then that's fine. Just move on to a thread that's actually of interest to you. 

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Not a straw man argument, merely making a point. Direct experience of something is in no way a precondition for having a valid point of view or knowledge about it. I don't generally reject other people's experiences, but equally, someone's perception of something is not proof either.

As for the moderating comment. It's already been pointed out. This is not a police state. People here are (supposed to be) grown ups and capable of deciding whether to ignore things or rise to the bait. There are plenty of forums where moderaration is heavy-handed, but this is not one of them. On those sort of forums, much debate is clamped down on and at least two of your comments so far would have earned you a permanent ban.

The AUP is perfectly clear. One person's 'snide comment' is another person's 'robust debate'. Either way, we don't constantly wade in and impose our rules. Personalities should not come before principles.

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George suggested that whilst he thought  that changing mains cables on the power amps would make the biggest difference he was wrong.

I found the opposite. Swapping cables on the  darTZeel power amp made quite an impact IMO despite the amp having its own decent power supply. Atlas cables seem to impart a richness to the sound whereas Shunyata seem leaner yet well balanced. Haven’t tried Puritan - maybe one day…..

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9 hours ago, rabski said:

Not a straw man argument, merely making a point. Direct experience of something is in no way a precondition for having a valid point of view or knowledge about it. I don't generally reject other people's experiences, but equally, someone's perception of something is not proof either.

As for the moderating comment. It's already been pointed out. This is not a police state. People here are (supposed to be) grown ups and capable of deciding whether to ignore things or rise to the bait. There are plenty of forums where moderaration is heavy-handed, but this is not one of them. On those sort of forums, much debate is clamped down on and at least two of your comments so far would have earned you a permanent ban.

The AUP is perfectly clear. One person's 'snide comment' is another person's 'robust debate'. Either way, we don't constantly wade in and impose our rules. Personalities should not come before principles.

You were arguing against something that I do not believe had been said (barred from having an opinion), hence I used the term 'straw man argument'.

I have no idea which of my comments you think would result in a ban from a forum - clearly not a forum I would want to be a member of.

The moderation I referred to was not heavy-handed - nobody was threatened with a ban and nothing more happened than I said - a suggestion to those who were trolling and making snide comments in a topic there were not interested in to not to do so as it brought the general tone of the group down and spoiled it for others.

I've said numerous times now - it's up to you how you moderate the forum. Perhaps cable threads, as an example, always go the same way because they are allowed to? Some members might like a thread about which cables people are using and what experiences they have had with them but what's the point in starting such a thread when vigorous attempts will be made to derail it and this will be permitted. A desire not to stifle expression of opinion results in discussion being stifled. I think it's a shame.

A thankfully small number of users do little more than use the forum to try and get reactions rather than actually contributing. Clearly they are not unwelcome and it seems that reacting is a worse thing to do than provoking such reactions, but thankfully the 'ignore user' button is available and I'll be making better use of it. To be clear, on this forum it is a relatively small number of people. Just be aware that these types of people stifle discussion and cause many people to not want to post about their experiences as they know where the thread will go. I think that's a shame but there's clearly no point discussing it further.

Snide comments vs robust debate - these are entirely different things and quite easily differentiated.

If you want to add anything further then perhaps DM me? I'm happy to discuss if you feel the need. It should be clear that this is not a direct attack on you personally - I am just expressing my opinion and some comments are very much generalised. I am aware of forums where even disagreeing with a moderator's opinion on a component can get you banned (ASR as one example) but I don't think the WAM is one of those forums. 

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, monya said:

George suggested that whilst he thought  that changing mains cables on the power amps would make the biggest difference he was wrong.

I found the opposite. Swapping cables on the  darTZeel power amp made quite an impact IMO despite the amp having its own decent power supply. Atlas cables seem to impart a richness to the sound whereas Shunyata seem leaner yet well balanced. Haven’t tried Puritan - maybe one day…..

Edited as I had misread your comment.

I found that my DAC showed more benefit than I expected - possibly more obvious than my power amps. I wonder if this is primarily related to the preamp in the DAC rather than a benefit that a standalone DAC might show. The DAC certainly benefited from a better power cable though.

Edited by Griff500
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My general thoughts on mains cables:

Forum favourites come & go; there's always another one around the corner.

Mains cables can make a positive impact SQ wise in a system, but it's never 'night & day' stuff. If you plug a new mains cable in and have some kind of Damascan experience, then expectation bias has just hit you hard!

My theory (backed by decades of experience) is that the main aim is to minimise impedance, particularly on the earth (different from ground). Star earthing can also help. With this in mind, use a good quality mains plug and a decent IEC connector. Not the basic IEC connector, Martin Kaiser or not! You need a good firm fit on the male to female IEC, but not so firm as to cause problems removing or securing a proper fit. A good interference fit. Having a good fit keeps the impedance across the connection to a minimum. Basic IECs tend to wobble round in the male connector; my thinking is that the dimensional tolerances to IEC are not held too closely on the cheaper IECs

Use a shielded cable. Cables doesn't need to be able to power a small village! 1.5mm^2 is usually more than adequate.

I have been using Clearer Audio Copper Line Alpha One for very many years. Good to see that they're still in business (which says much in its own right). I specify a silver plated MK mains plug (it's ever so shiny, so must be better!), with a Furutech FI-11 Cu IEC connector. It all makes for a very good quality, flexible, well finished cable for not silly money. Clearer Audio do offer silly money cables, for those who want to spend more.

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6 minutes ago, simon g said:

My general thoughts on mains cables:

Forum favourites come & go; there's always another one around the corner.

Mains cables can make a positive impact SQ wise in a system, but it's never 'night & day' stuff. If you plug a new mains cable in and have some kind of Damascan experience, then expectation bias has just hit you hard!

My theory (backed by decades of experience) is that the main aim is to minimise impedance, particularly on the earth (different from ground). Star earthing can also help. With this in mind, use a good quality mains plug and a decent IEC connector. Not the basic IEC connector, Martin Kaiser or not! You need a good firm fit on the male to female IEC, but not so firm as to cause problems removing or securing a proper fit. A good interference fit. Having a good fit keeps the impedance across the connection to a minimum. Basic IECs tend to wobble round in the male connector; my thinking is that the dimensional tolerances to IEC are not held too closely on the cheaper IECs

Use a shielded cable. Cables doesn't need to be able to power a small village! 1.5mm^2 is usually more than adequate.

I have been using Clearer Audio Copper Line Alpha One for very many years. Good to see that they're still in business (which says much in its own right). I specify a silver plated MK mains plug (it's ever so shiny, so must be better!), with a Furutech FI-11 Cu IEC connector. It all makes for a very good quality, flexible, well finished cable for not silly money. Clearer Audio do offer silly money cables, for those who want to spend more.

The cables I am using certainly have a far better fit in the sockets then standard cables. I also felt that the distributor I am using provided a lift in sound quality even with standard cables, although it did necessitate a change to Schuko cables from fused UK plugs, which might also bring some small benefits.

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21 minutes ago, Griff500 said:

The cables I am using certainly have a far better fit in the sockets then standard cables. I also felt that the distributor I am using provided a lift in sound quality even with standard cables, although it did necessitate a change to Schuko cables from fused UK plugs, which might also bring some small benefits.

Audible advantages aside, moving away from BS certified hardware to items which are not certified in the U.K. is entirely at your own risk. It isn’t a criticism of the above, you can do what you like in your own home but I think it prudent we make that clear.

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1 minute ago, Cable Monkey said:

Audible advantages aside, moving away from BS certified hardware to items which are not certified in the U.K. is entirely at your own risk. It isn’t a criticism of the above, you can do what you like in your own home but I think it prudent we make that clear.

Indeed, although I am no longer in the UK and when I did this just before leaving the UK I still had a fused plug from the wall to the distributor, so I don't believe there was any safety issue or regulatory issue? These distributors were sold in the UK prior to Brexit and are still sold there now.

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12 minutes ago, Griff500 said:

Indeed, although I am no longer in the UK and when I did this just before leaving the UK I still had a fused plug from the wall to the distributor, so I don't believe there was any safety issue or regulatory issue? These distributors were sold in the UK prior to Brexit and are still sold there now.

This has come up before.

As I understand it, the primary connection of anything to a UK ring main needs to be using a BS1363 compliant plug and (shuttered) socket. After that, things need to be compliant with specific standards, but do not necessarily have to be BS1363. Plenty of gardening and power tools use in-line round-pin connectors, and there are many other extension leads with assorted connectors.

The only thing I would caution is that a lot of (older) equipment designed specifically for the UK market may well be fitted with a switch/fuse arrangement that only breaks the 'live' line. Fitting something like this with anything other than a square-pin plug can be potentially dangerous, as may such plugs are reversible (the mains 'live' and 'neutral' can be either way round). No matter how unlikely, this could still potentially result in a failure where casework could be live.

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5 minutes ago, rabski said:

This has come up before.

As I understand it, the primary connection of anything to a UK ring main needs to be using a BS1363 compliant plug and (shuttered) socket. After that, things need to be compliant with specific standards, but do not necessarily have to be BS1363. Plenty of gardening and power tools use in-line round-pin connectors, and there are many other extension leads with assorted connectors.

The only thing I would caution is that a lot of (older) equipment designed specifically for the UK market may well be fitted with a switch/fuse arrangement that only breaks the 'live' line. Fitting something like this with anything other than a square-pin plug can be potentially dangerous, as may such plugs are reversible (the mains 'live' and 'neutral' can be either way round). No matter how unlikely, this could still potentially result in a failure where casework could be live.

I presume anything produced to common standards for sale within the European Union should be perfectly okay.

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1 hour ago, Griff500 said:

I presume anything produced to common standards for sale within the European Union should be perfectly okay.

It is important for safety that live and neutral aren’t transposed for the reasons @rabski says, and also possibly for performance in some cases.

In the EU, my amplifier manufacturer, Primare, supply a polarity ‘pen’.  I was intrigued, and they kindly sent me one, gratis, to try.  (Because of EU rules they apologised that they weren’t enclosing batteries!)

Here are how the instructions appear...

947EF215-4F84-47B6-AAAD-57BCF7515714.thumb.jpeg.bce5a2d7e46041903ac8ca754b62c387.jpeg
 

Those ‘figure of 8’ plugs that are still quite common on kit in the UK are easily reversed.  When there’s a metal chassis, it’s not unknown to feel it tingling to the touch.  I’ve always found that somewhat disconcerting.  Thankfully, none of my Hi-Fi is like that!  I do have a wireless speaker that tingles though.  

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