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Listening to NGKDSM etc with a clean conscience


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23 minutes ago, Chris 1970 said:

You know it is…

No, I don‘t. I think, it isn‘t. 

I think on the Linn section of this Forum it should be allowed to say

- that I still enjoy Klimax Kontrol / KDS 3 Katalyst

- that I still my Klimax Kontrol with a non-Linn DAC (which ranked better by me and three of my Linn friends as the KDS/3).

Or do you expect that everyone posts that every new Linn gear ist much better than the „old“ one and that you can‘t heat music with „old“ system?

I apologise If my personal first impressions were too proactive for you.

Edited by Ben Webster
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2 minutes ago, Ben Webster said:

No, I don‘t. I think, it isn‘t. 

I think on the Linn section of this Forum it should be allowed to say

- that I still enjoy Klimax Kontrol / KDS 3 Katalyst

- that I still my Klimax Kontrol with a non-Linn DAC (which ranked better by me and the Linn friends as the KDS/3).

Or do you expect that everyone posts that every new Linn gear ist much better than the „old“ one and that you can‘t heat music with „old“ system?

I apologise If my personal first impressions were too proactive for you.

Ben,

Of course, you can say all these things! It's refreshing as I said, really. 😊 (this is a real smiley!)

And I know like you the existence of others DAC that could be better in some system.

Perhaps it's a vocabulary problem from me: "provocative" in French is not insulting at all, it's a way – some times – to think different and even be fun about big things (big toys like hifi, political choices, and so on)!

My first intention was more to know a little more about your different views about the Klimax and your DAC… My dealer who sells the DCS big boys made the comparison multiple times for example.

And yes, you are provocative 😀

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6 hours ago, Chris 1970 said:

Perhaps it's a vocabulary problem from me

It seems that attempting to put into words how a particular audio component performs has always been a vocabulary problem.

I think Linn tried to help us with the idea of "tune" as a primary descriptor of what an audio component does, to a greater or lesser extent (a.k.a. "pitch accuracy"). 

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14 hours ago, Elad Repooc said:

It seems that attempting to put into words how a particular audio component performs has always been a vocabulary problem.

I think Linn tried to help us with the idea of "tune" as a primary descriptor of what an audio component does, to a greater or lesser extent (a.k.a. "pitch accuracy"). 

Elad, you are right. Linn and their dealers always helped to describe what an audio component does.

The thing is – for me, with my friend and dealer in the same room – it was clear that the DSM Organik was a big musical improvement. That said, the Katalyst is so good – with nothing to had in the hifi domain – I would be very happy with it at home for sure!

As I mentioned earlier, I discovered 1) streamer, 2) Katalyst, 3) Organik the same session. Like for everyone here, a listening session is alway a particular moment in your audiophile life, with different earlier experiences that influence your perception of the music.

When a review says the DMS Organik is bright on some tracks, it can be:
– a burn in problem as Ben proposed,
– a reference DAC you own that's better or more forgiving (earlier experience influence).

With a Katalyst engineering (exceptional) start, an all new machine in the factory, an all new motherboard with discrete components, and a new case with major isolation improvement, I can't imagine the DSM Organik being close or worth than the Katalyst.

It's a non-sense, in a Linn only perspective 😊

Edited by Chris 1970
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When comparing KDSM Katalyst with NGKDSM we should be aware that we also compare the Pre-Amp section.

During our first listening session we also connected an Urika I to the NGKDSM (as Pre-Amp). Also a very interesting difference compared to Klimax Kontrol …

Edited by Ben Webster
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2 minutes ago, Ben Webster said:

When comparing KDSM Katalyst with NGKDSM we should be aware that we also compare the Pre-Amp section.

During our first listening session we also connected an Urika I to the NGKDSM (as Pre-Amp). Also a very interesting difference compared to Klimax Kontrol …

Hi Ben,

You are right, it must be an important part of the sound result.

What are your findings with on without the Klimax Kontrol ?

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2 hours ago, Chris 1970 said:

What are your findings with on without the Klimax Kontrol ?

Disclaimer: my ears, my personal taste, not my room and system, relatively new NGKDSM AV (maybe some more time to burn in).

Soundwise NGKDSM was the clear winner. More information, crispier sound, more airiness.

Considering the age of Klimax Kontrol musicality was still very enjoyable even the sound was darker (not in a positive way). 
 

The interaction between the musicians with the two „Pre_Amps“ was nearly the same. But I guess because the source was the same.

If you have the money and you‘re going to buy new (if still available) it is no question to spend the additional € 7.000,- (comparing KK + KDS/3). 
 

I didn’t‘ compared KDSM Katalyst vs. NGKDSM where the price difference is  round about € 18.000,- )which is a lot of money).

Looking forward to organize a demo with the (black - even my other Klimax boxes are silver) NGKDSM Music (not AV) in my room.

For people who know me and know how I hear music and what my preferences are, it is much easier to understand, what I try to report.

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47 minutes ago, Ben Webster said:

Soundwise NGKDSM was the clear winner. More information, crispier sound, more airiness.

Considering the age of Klimax Kontrol musicality was still very enjoyable even the sound was darker (not in a positive way). 

Thanks for this great return, it makes sense 😊

I have a Klimax Kontrol too – from 2001 I guess – and your comment recalls me the very big difference the Dynamik upgrade made around 2008. I guess you also did it, or bought an already dynamiked Kontrol.

After the night, I told myself: "Hey, why have you told to Ben that his review was bad like that?"

Before we move on, I apologie for my initial message that came from nowhere… I see that you are still not confortable, as you think it is necessary to begin and close your message like you just did.

Please, see it as what it is: I discovered this forum one month ago. In fact, since I ordered the Klimax hub and the Organik Exakt boxes, and – that way – was back in the interest of the Linn actuality. It's my first buy of Linn since 2008!

So, I visite this forum, and discover recent and older posts that I could like, upvote, or sometimes respond to. I was a little rough with you, as I didn't introduce myself and this late connection to the forum correctly.


 

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Hi Chris,

no problem at all; I can deal with it 😜

Yes, I own one the earliest Klimax Kontrols and did all updates (Dynamik, Dual Mono board).

One of my Linn dealer tried to convince me, that Klimax Kontrol is old and slow and KDSM (at that time second generation) is the much better pre-amp.

We made several blind tests and guess what: he was wrong. 😇

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4 hours ago, Ben Webster said:

We made several blind tests and guess what: he was wrong. 😇

I see your position now! I love that 😇, I use myself a lot at home…

Edited by Chris 1970
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On 15/09/2021 at 01:43, Chris 1970 said:

When a review says the DMS Organik is bright on some tracks, it can be:
– a burn in problem as Ben proposed,
– a reference DAC you own that's better or more forgiving (earlier experience influence).

Actually, it could be due to a number of different things, typically if a system sounds "bright", in my opinion it may not be setup properly in some fashion.

While I will concede that there are certain components which sound a bit "bright", most of the time some changes to the configuration help to alleviate the perceived "brightness".

In my experience things sound "bright" because harmonic information is improperly aligned, in other words there is "smear" in the mid and upper ranges.

Typically a more accurate electronic component will control the output of the loudspeaker with less variance in tolerance, so if something sounds bright it could be because the air rarefaction is occurring more accurately, and possibly exacerbating room influences one did not perceive before, especially if the loudspeakers weren't close to being properly tuned up in the first place.

In other words, I don't take anyone's review of a component as being "bright" without a huge grain of salt, and if I believed every audiophile I read on the internet I probably wouldn't own Linn to begin with

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4 hours ago, Elad Repooc said:

Actually, it could be due to a number of different things, typically if a system sounds "bright", in my opinion it may not be setup properly in some fashion.

While I will concede that there are certain components which sound a bit "bright", most of the time some changes to the configuration help to alleviate the perceived "brightness".

In my experience things sound "bright" because harmonic information is improperly aligned, in other words there is "smear" in the mid and upper ranges.

Typically a more accurate electronic component will control the output of the loudspeaker with less variance in tolerance, so if something sounds bright it could be because the air rarefaction is occurring more accurately, and possibly exacerbating room influences one did not perceive before, especially if the loudspeakers weren't close to being properly tuned up in the first place.

In other words, I don't take anyone's review of a component as being "bright" without a huge grain of salt, and if I believed every audiophile I read on the internet I probably wouldn't own Linn to begin with

Elad,

An other great message 😊

As we all familiar in the Linn word with the upgrade experience – material and placement – how often a better sound from the speakers could be a new challenge for the room.

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7 hours ago, Elad Repooc said:

if I believed every audiophile I read on the internet I probably wouldn't own Linn to begin with

Yep, we’re the ones that listen to music in that “strange way”. According to some…

’troll

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