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11 minutes ago, Le Baron said:

Well the thing is there isn't that much 'private capital' invested in the rail system at all. These 'private' contractors are persistently on the cadge from public spending, which goes on exorbitant salaries.....

Where do you think the ££billions have come from to provide the hundreds of new trains (in newspaper speak, thousands of carriages) that have replaced more than three quarters of the old BR rolling stock? All of that has been provided by international private sector capital, allowing the leasing companies and train manufacturers to provide large fleets of modern stock, that could not be afforded otherwise.

As for the huge government subsidies to rail, almost all of that goes towards maintenance, renewals and upgrades to the infrastructure, as well as large capital projects, of which there have been many.  That's Network Rail's territory, not the TOC's.

The provision of passenger carrying services, when taking into account both the profit making franchises (most of the money goes to the government in the form of premium payments) and those franchises that perennially run at a loss, have been breaking even for several years, until Covid interrupted.

The boards of the TOC's are not "syphoning off" public spending. That money comes from company's profits, which amount to an average of 2 to 3% of turnover. A pittance in business terms, although with the large amounts of money involved, the pittance can add up to a fair amount. The bulk of the profits are paid to the public purse in what are known as Premium Payments, the contracted price that the TOC pays for the award of the contract.

I'm not pushing or defending any political point here or defending or promoting any ideology. The problem with public discussion on matters like this, is that it gets warped and distorted by flawed and inaccurate understanding, hyperbole and political rhetoric. It's a general problem we have in the UK with debating or reporting on many issues, led by poorly informed and ignorant politicians and journalists.

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1 hour ago, High 5 said:

Where do you think the ££billions have come from to provide the hundreds of new trains (in newspaper speak, thousands of carriages) that have replaced more than three quarters of the old BR rolling stock? All of that has been provided by international private sector capital, allowing the leasing companies and train manufacturers to provide large fleets of modern stock, that could not be afforded otherwise.

Sorry to contradict you, but it does actually come from public spending. So does 'private sector capital' for the most part; accrued from other global government contracts. This money doesn't come out of 'thin air' for private companies, but it does for govUK. You'll find that whenever a company has been given a contract to build new rolling stock the money that actually pays for this is overwhelmingly derived from public spending in the forms of support grants, interest-free loans or because it is wangled in a way that government pays for it. There is 'private money' put into this as well, but it is piddling by comparison and not "billions", in no way shape or form. See the semi-privatised KLM/Air France which boasts dozens of "private international venture capitalists", but whose actual main funding comes via the European Central Bank, by issue decree. RyanAir just took their case to court in order to get its own bailout from the EU (despite being an entirely private company) and the KLM bailout being ruled against, but which won't be reversed.

Any multi-billion public service 'business' operation claiming 'private funding' is a fantasy. I know what the official story is supposed to be and that people get things wrong, but the view the privatised railways is not actually an administrative scam trading on the UK government's four-decade commitment to privatised services, is naive. The only reason this is jockeyed to-and-fro in the papers is because 999 out of a 1000 people (optimist's estimate) has zero clue about how the economy, public and private, is actually funded.

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On 21/05/2021 at 23:42, High 5 said:

Thank you for your courtesy, but I'm afraid with regard to railway rolling stock procurement, you are so far off reality that your reply is a total fantasy. I'll leave it at that.

I can live with it. Most people have zero understanding (or refuse to jettison an erroneous, ideological view) about how large projects are actually funded; and that also goes for the average MP who turns up as a pundit on TV and makes remarks about it. A notable example for me was Ben Bradshaw MP, when he was a health minister, talking absolute nonsense about how not only NHS funding is procured, but also the funding conduits for so-called 'outsourced' things like catering. It seems to confuse people to discover that so much of 'private funding' really isn't 'private' at all.

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Posted (edited)
On 24/05/2021 at 16:56, Le Baron said:

...Most people have zero understanding (or refuse to jettison an erroneous, ideological view) about how large projects are actually funded; ....

You are quite right and provide perfect self evidence of that, with regard to your view on the subject matter, railway rolling stock procurement.

z

Edited by High 5
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Posted (edited)

I can assure you nothing will change!

The NHS and Railways are both bottomless pits that will never have enough money and or be run efficiently, All this is is another reorganization, I've  been continually reorganized for 31 years in September. 

Edited by Lee M
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2 hours ago, Lee M said:

I've  been continually reorganized for 31 years in September. 

wasn't it Cicero who wrote "We achieve the illusion of progress by constant reorganisation" ?

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2 hours ago, Lee M said:

The NHS ... bottomless pit that will never have enough money and or be run efficiently

Wasn't so bad in the days when hospitals were run by Hattie Jacques-style matrons who put the fear of God into people (as opposed to young wet-behind-the-ears management graduates in suits)

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I can assure you nothing will change!
The NHS and Railways are both bottomless pits that will never have enough money and or be run efficiently, All this is is another reorganization, I've  been continually reorganized for 31 years in September. 
Still a darned site more efficient than the American health care system despite what the Daily Mail says. Has the Mail discovered another cure for cancer this week that the medical profession is unaware of or is it the turn of arthritis, MS or some other long standing illness? It used to be early in the week for medical discoveries followed by immigration. They had a pattern.

Sent from my SM-A405FN using Tapatalk

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22 minutes ago, Pete the Feet said:

Has the Mail discovered another cure for cancer this week

I thought they spent most of the time trying to persuade you that immigrants give you cancer

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On 25/05/2021 at 15:30, High 5 said:

You are quite right and provide perfect self evidence of that, with regard to your view on the subject matter, railway rolling stock procurement.

z

I didn't see this. I needed to be clearer. I meant YOU have zero idea, but that you thought you did and didn't take kindly to having that misconception demolished.

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