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Over engineering?


Mynameismud
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2 minutes ago, Mynameismud said:

There we have it, that's extreme. Looks like a case of "left a bit, right a bit, a bit more.....there have it". But if it works it works I suppose.

Agree that it did work but now there is no way to see what putting it on a massive diet would have achieved . By my count there are 25 different components for each crossover and all you are trying to do is get a smooth transition from the Bass/Mid units to the Treble unit . I would think there is at least 15 too many components on that board and the same could probably be achieved with ten and that could result in better sound quality. I have to add that not by me as I neither have the technical knowledge nor the measuring implements needed to design a decent crossover for a passive speaker and so i would make it worse . However someone with the knowledge and equipment i am sure could make a much simpler solution than this one .

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1 hour ago, hearhere said:

I'm interested to hear that you like the Lavardin Integrated amp despite it short-changing you on what's inside the case!  The less junk inside the better as long as it works well and sounds great.  In fact I've had the A-80 Reference on my wish list for years but they come up so rarely used, that I'd almost forgotton the name Lavardin!  Perhaps I should get a new one on demo as I'd like an alternative power amp in my system.  In fact, apart from the integrated, there sems to be no one in the UK who keeps the power amp listed.  Peter

No sense of short changing. If it had half the components again I wouldn't care.

To be honest, and not intending to be unhelpful, I won't get into too much about describing the Lavardin sound. Firstly because I haven't got the literary skills to do so, and secondly because it's like trying to write what food or drink tastes like, or what standing in a scenic location looks and feels like. I can however highly recommend people try to hear one. After an hour for me it was a case of "damn, this existed and I didn't know until now". Flowing and realistic. Some describe it as musical, to some that may come across as slightly down on the detail but up on the bounce and fun.

The ISX is hyper detailed in reality with whip crack speed and startling resolution, but not in an analytical way at all. It's a real natural sound as if you were hearing it in person and therefore would hear that detail. It reveals the detail of the detail  if that makes sense. The echo of a drum hit in the room it was recorded, the ring of a cymbal still floating long after struck, the reverb of a string pluck that you never heard before, but all in an absolutely realistic manner. It's doing that with the background stuff just as much as the music in the fore. It's just a really beautiful natural sound. Speed in that nothing, no matter how complex smears or blurs. It applies this to all genres and tempos, complex or simple music. It results in you wanting to hear what this album sounds like, what that track sounds like etc over and over.

What's particularly startling for me is I had fully expected the need to pick up a DAC as the isx is analogue only. I had been using a very modest yamaha cdp as a transport into a simaudio neo ace. There's no need. What the ISX is pulling from the analogue feed of the yamaha is as described above. It seriously has me reevaluating what's the most important component of a system.

I've blabbed on a bit. Just try to demo or borrow one, they've a big following, don't really change their design, I now know why and I'm thankfully on board. 

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6 hours ago, bencat said:

I have to say that I much prefer the less is more design ethos the problem comes when it is expected that we have a full size case in order to fit with other makes and equipment on a visual level . It would be better for looks if case size could be reduced but having something outside the normal does not always sell well .

Any way here is an example of over engineering that I am pretty sure has a detrimental effect on the sound quality . Sad thing is I like the original sound so at least they must work but will be interesting to hear them when all of this is replaced by digital active crossover . This is for a Two Way speaker by the way .

04LSXoversRemoved.jpg

Why are the inductors in that crossover so tiny, when compared to the inductors inside my 1960's speakers (which have 1st order crossovers)?

Isn't saturation a thing at higher power levels with inductors?

Is that a prime example of over-engineered and under engineered at the same time? Over engineered for the complexity of the crossover, under engineered for the power levels at which inductor saturation will occur?

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35 minutes ago, lindsayt said:

Is that a prime example of over-engineered and under engineered at the same time? Over engineered for the complexity of the crossover, under engineered for the power levels at which inductor saturation will occur?

35 minutes ago, lindsayt said:

Why are the inductors in that crossover so tiny

Hi,

The inductors uses an iron core to increase their inductance, hence a small inductor for same inductance.

As you have said, saturation may be an issue, but they are also non-linear due to the B-H curve. Maybe that is why some people like the sound of speakers, due to the non-linearity of the crossover.

Regards,

Shadders.

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2 minutes ago, Shadders said:

Hi,

The inductors uses an iron core to increase their inductance, hence a small inductor for same inductance.

As you have said, saturation may be an issue, but they are also non-linear due to the B-H curve. Maybe that is why some people like the sound of speakers, due to the non-linearity of the crossover.

Regards,

Shadders.

Wait till he finds out about fuel injection and disc brakes.

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4 hours ago, Mynameismud said:

I haven't got the literary skills ..., and secondly because it's like trying to write what food or drink tastes like, or what standing in a scenic location looks and feels like.

Two apposite quotes from FZ:

  • Writing about music is like dancing about architecture
  • Music journalism is people who can't write, writing for people who can't read.

I think similar applies to writing about HiFi

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6 hours ago, Mynameismud said:

No sense of short changing. If it had half the components again I wouldn't care.

To be honest, and not intending to be unhelpful, I won't get into too much about describing the Lavardin sound. Firstly because I haven't got the literary skills to do so, and secondly because it's like trying to write what food or drink tastes like, or what standing in a scenic location looks and feels like. I can however highly recommend people try to hear one. After an hour for me it was a case of "damn, this existed and I didn't know until now". Flowing and realistic. Some describe it as musical, to some that may come across as slightly down on the detail but up on the bounce and fun.

The ISX is hyper detailed in reality with whip crack speed and startling resolution, but not in an analytical way at all. It's a real natural sound as if you were hearing it in person and therefore would hear that detail. It reveals the detail of the detail  if that makes sense. The echo of a drum hit in the room it was recorded, the ring of a cymbal still floating long after struck, the reverb of a string pluck that you never heard before, but all in an absolutely realistic manner. It's doing that with the background stuff just as much as the music in the fore. It's just a really beautiful natural sound. Speed in that nothing, no matter how complex smears or blurs. It applies this to all genres and tempos, complex or simple music. It results in you wanting to hear what this album sounds like, what that track sounds like etc over and over.

What's particularly startling for me is I had fully expected the need to pick up a DAC as the isx is analogue only. I had been using a very modest yamaha cdp as a transport into a simaudio neo ace. There's no need. What the ISX is pulling from the analogue feed of the yamaha is as described above. It seriously has me reevaluating what's the most important component of a system.

I've blabbed on a bit. Just try to demo or borrow one, they've a big following, don't really change their design, I now know why and I'm thankfully on board. 

Thanks Mud

Unfortunately you've not provided any information about yourself (location, etc) or your equipment oin your profile so I can't see whay speakers your amp powers.  Are you UK based and did you buy from a UK dealer?  There are only 2 or 3 including the distributor who doesn't eben mention the power amps.  Nothing anywhere used according to HiFiShark although I have a flag to be alerted if one does turn up.

Does the amp run hot?  The spec is so vague I don't know if it's Class A or AB.  However good the equipment may be I despair of manufacturers that don't bother to supply meaningful specs. 

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4 hours ago, hearhere said:

Thanks Mud

Unfortunately you've not provided any information about yourself (location, etc) or your equipment oin your profile so I can't see whay speakers your amp powers.  Are you UK based and did you buy from a UK dealer?  There are only 2 or 3 including the distributor who doesn't eben mention the power amps.  Nothing anywhere used according to HiFiShark although I have a flag to be alerted if one does turn up.

Does the amp run hot?  The spec is so vague I don't know if it's Class A or AB.  However good the equipment may be I despair of manufacturers that don't bother to supply meaningful specs. 

I'm afraid my system may not provide much that's comparable with yours. I'm using proac tablette 10 and a basic yamaha cdp. I've had bigger and far more expensive systems but this destroys them for sheer enjoyment, all in an appropriately sized room of course.

The Lavardin power amps seem to be a bit of a specialty alright. Even on their own website you have to do a bit of digging to find out about them. I'm guessing custom orders so 2nd hand would be a rare find.

The ISX does not run hot, or warm even after several hours but the power amps are very different so who knows? I've not had experience with separate pre and power set ups, would a lot of the sound quality not be defined by the pre rather than the power amp? 

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4 hours ago, hearhere said:

Thanks Mud

Unfortunately you've not provided any information about yourself (location, etc) or your equipment oin your profile so I can't see whay speakers your amp powers.  Are you UK based and did you buy from a UK dealer?  There are only 2 or 3 including the distributor who doesn't eben mention the power amps.  Nothing anywhere used according to HiFiShark although I have a flag to be alerted if one does turn up.

Does the amp run hot?  The spec is so vague I don't know if it's Class A or AB.  However good the equipment may be I despair of manufacturers that don't bother to supply meaningful specs. 

Haha, my entire system weighs less than a quarter of one of your speakers! Very nice system you have.
Did a bit of digging on the A80 reference you're interested in. It's essentially an IS reference without the integrated pre amp. If 35wpc is enough for you, your speakers are very efficient, then maybe just try the integrated IS reference which do come up frequently enough. Or you could try an ISX reference for a whopping jump up to 50wpc. Who knows, you may be pleasantly surprised at the results.

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11 hours ago, Mynameismud said:

Haha, my entire system weighs less than a quarter of one of your speakers! Very nice system you have.
Did a bit of digging on the A80 reference you're interested in. It's essentially an IS reference without the integrated pre amp. If 35wpc is enough for you, your speakers are very efficient, then maybe just try the integrated IS reference which do come up frequently enough. Or you could try an ISX reference for a whopping jump up to 50wpc. Who knows, you may be pleasantly surprised at the results.

Thanks for that - it's good to speak with someone who actually owns a Lavardin - you're a rare breed!   Also good to hear that it doesn't run hot so presumably not a Class A circuit.  I went through a 2 year period testing a dozen amps to replace the valve ones I'd been using the previous 15 years.  This was with my original Avantgardes - Unos from about 2002.  These included 2 Class A amps and one was a non-starter but I liked many features of the other (Accuphase), but found it a little lacking in punch when required.  Although I chose a Class D amp in the end (based on sound quality, features and value), I'd like an alternative amp to offer an alternative presentation and the Levardin may fit the bill.  I think you're right that the ISx is effectively an A80 with preamp stage so the loan of the ISx or Reference ISx should offer much the same sound as the power amp versions.

Incidentally the ITx amp has only 5 watts more output yet it comes in a larger case and weighs in at 12 Kg.  One wonders what extra is included in this amp.  I'll phone the importer and pick their brains though I wonder if even they have first-hand experience with anything other than the ISx!   Thanks.  Peter

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