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Serious Turntable Competition For The LP12 From Naim?


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14 minutes ago, OldLinn said:

I am not totally impressed with the look of the turntable, visually it's black for a start and very top heavy and wouldn't a nice oak or afromosia or Wenge plinth improve it? I wonder how long it will be before they are being offered and not nessessarily by Naim? And what about a dust lid?

No dist lid included but Clearaudio makes a cover that will fit over the entire thing.  The plinth/suspension/sub chassis assembly is not replaceable so I wouldn't hold my breath for solid wood plinths.  You might be able to figure out some way to replace the acrylic front and side panels but I wouldn't bet on it.

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6 hours ago, akamatsu said:

This thread is an insult to LP12 (no hyphen) owners, especially Klimax LP12 owners, and especially Klimax LP12 owners who happen to know a little about engineering design. You don't show up with a copied design and better an established product that has been refined for decades through skillful engineering. I suspect this Naim TT was conceived in the marketing department, and it's design focused on being a money grab.

Edit: Removed redundant redundancy.

But this thread is not about you.

It is about a new product developed by Linn’s one time partner Naim. That is all.

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  • Paulssurround changed the title to Serious Turntable Competition For The LP12 From Naim?
3 hours ago, ThomasOK said:

There will definitely be some wait and see involved in this, regardless of whether it is actually a good idea. ;)  Although I don't think the weight will be a problem for the LP12 suspension (just a guess), according to the Naim forum the new carbon fiber ARO has a different mount to the old one so will not work with ARO armboards/sub chassis.  However, I read that the pivot to stylus distance is the same 230mm as the old ARO.  The Ekos SE has a pivot to stylus distance of 229mm.

The Linn Krane arm fits in a Keel and I am pretty sure the pillar is standard Clearaudio size for that style of arm.  So IF the new ARO uses the same size pillar it would fit on Linn arm mounts.  There would be a small overhang error with three point Linn cartridges but the 1mm difference shouldn't cause any problem with other cartridges as the new ARO has slots for the two usual cartridge mounting screws.

I know Peter at Cymbiosis is particularly interested in seeing if the new ARO can be made to work with an LP12 and he has a Solstice on order for demo.  So we may find out before too long if the two can work together.  Then the question will be whether Naim will end up selling the Solstice components, currently only available as a complete package, as individual items.  If I were a betting man I would place my money on definitely.

Thomas, thanks that is good info. If Peter ends up thinking the new arm is worthy on the LP12, that would be a good recommendation. Naim would be smart to sell the arm by itself, but they may have no choice in that matter...time will tell.

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Quite surprised that NAIM don't provide a proper fitting lid for the Solstice.  Turntables collect dust like "white on rice"!  The lids that covers the entire turntable (base as well) just look clunky to me.  

????????????

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Does anyone knows if there is any internal metal bracing between the tonearm collar and the main bearing or is it just pure MDF plies (47 of them)? Wondering if the top of the plinth will not deform due to the high mass platter weight in high humidity locations. It looks so much like a McIntosh TT-5, which really disappointed me when I set it up for a friend a little more than a year and a half ago.

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1 hour ago, vicdiaz said:

Does anyone knows if there is any internal metal bracing between the tonearm collar and the main bearing or is it just pure MDF plies (47 of them)? Wondering if the top of the plinth will not deform due to the high mass platter weight in high humidity locations. It looks so much like a McIntosh TT-5, which really disappointed me when I set it up for a friend a little more than a year and a half ago.

There is no mention of any bracing of the "sub chassis" area and none is visible in the (less than fully informative) photos I have seen.  I don't believe it is mdf as there does appear to be some grain in the photo that shows the underside, although the focus isn't very good.  So I suspect a high quality plywood (which doesn't sound as fancy as 47 layers of wood).  As to problems caused by humidity, I would tend to doubt it.  Clearaudio certainly has a lot of experience with wood and wouldn't be likely to make a mistake like that.

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2 hours ago, sktn77a said:

Quite surprised that NAIM don't provide a proper fitting lid for the Solstice.  Turntables collect dust like "white on rice"!  The lids that covers the entire turntable (base as well) just look clunky to me.  

????????????

I would guess that the problem is that a normal hinged lid that has to cover that massive platter would need too much clearance in the back to be practical.  Not to mention the monster hinges needed to hold up the weight might not let it close properly.  Hence the clunky covers for the whole thing.  Which, since they do look that way, were conveniently left out of the Solstice package.

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22 minutes ago, ThomasOK said:

There is no mention of any bracing of the "sub chassis" area and none is visible in the (less than fully informative) photos I have seen.  I don't believe it is mdf as there does appear to be some grain in the photo that shows the underside, although the focus isn't very good.  So I suspect a high quality plywood (which doesn't sound as fancy as 47 layers of wood).  As to problems caused by humidity, I would tend to doubt it.  Clearaudio certainly has a lot of experience with wood and wouldn't be likely to make a mistake like that.

Yes, Clearaudio has their "Panzerholz" wood material (which sort of sounds like something mentioned on the History Channel about the Germans and WW2.)  I think they are qualified to make something that won't buckle in humidity. Not sure how it would hold up in Saigon though.   

https://www.lessloss.com/page.html?id=80

PS - I have no idea if the Solstice is made from the panzerholz.  The plinth could just be made from a nice dense slab of real wood.  I thought it was a proprietary Clearaudio product - like Corinthian leather, ha - but it seems to be something that is available for others to use.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corinthian_leather

Edited by mskaye
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I'm confused. Is the sub-chassis made of wood? O.o

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20 minutes ago, mskaye said:

Yes, Clearaudio has their "Panzerholz" wood material (which sort of sounds like something mentioned on the History Channel about the Germans and WW2.)  I think they are qualified to make something that won't buckle in humidity. Not sure how it would hold up in Saigon though.   

https://www.lessloss.com/page.html?id=80

PS - I have no idea if the Solstice is made from the panzerholz.  The plinth could just be made from a nice dense slab of real wood.  I thought it was a proprietary Clearaudio product - like Corinthian leather, ha - but it seems to be something that is available for others to use.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corinthian_leather

Panzerholz is a German made compressed wood product that is very dense and very strong.  I believe it is moisture resistant and is popular on grips for handguns, among other things.  In all the panzerholz items and photos I have seen it has tended to be a medium-dark brown.  The photo of the internals of the Solstice appear to be a much lighter colored wood so my guess is that it is not panzerholz although Clearaudio is known for using it in turntable plinths and cartridge bodies.  Indeed I recently installed a Clearaudio Jubilee MC made of panzerholz onto an AMG turntable/arm for a customer.  It would be interesting to know what kind of wood they used.  You would think for a product like this (these) that a nice white paper outlining the design ideas and choices made would be forthcoming.

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9 minutes ago, akamatsu said:

I'm confused. Is the sub-chassis made of wood? O.o

In this unit the "sub chassis" isn't actually a separate piece.  The entire plinth is made out of a 47 layer wood block.  This is machined in such a way that an oblong section, that the platter bearing and the arm mounting platform attach to, is machined out of that block.  But it is not separate from the block as three sections connecting it to the main plinth are machined into elongated S shaped springs.  So the plinth, sub chassis and springs are actually all one piece (with 47 layers) that is intricately machined to form outer, sub chassis and spring sections.  Yes, it has wooden springs!

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1 minute ago, ThomasOK said:

In this unit the "sub chassis" isn't actually a separate piece.  The entire plinth is made out of a 47 layer wood block.  This is machined in such a way that an oblong section, that the platter bearing and the arm mounting platform attach to, is machined out of that block.  But it is not separate from the block as three sections connecting it to the main plinth are machined into elongated S shaped springs.  So the plinth, sub chassis and springs are actually all one piece (with 47 layers) that is intricately machined to form outer, sub chassis and spring sections.  Yes, it has wooden springs!

I'm having a difficult time envisioning all of this. The linked article about Panzerholz talks about its dampening properties, and this would apply to wood in general. As we know, the outer platter, inner platter, main bearing, sub-chassis, tonearm collar, tonearm, cartridge body all need to vibrate together as one in an LP12. Having the main bearing isolated from the tonearm collar by introducing a dampening material (wood sub-chassis) would be counter to this intent. As far as I can see, it would also be counter to good design. I guess more will be revealed later. In the meantime, I'll just keep scratching my head. O.o

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4 minutes ago, akamatsu said:

I'm having a difficult time envisioning all of this. The linked article about Panzerholz talks about its dampening properties, and this would apply to wood in general. As we know, the outer platter, inner platter, main bearing, sub-chassis, tonearm collar, tonearm, cartridge body all need to vibrate together as one in an LP12. Having the main bearing isolated from the tonearm collar by introducing a dampening material (wood sub-chassis) would be counter to this intent. As far as I can see, it would also be counter to good design. I guess more will be revealed later. In the meantime, I'll just keep scratching my head. O.o

Ah, but this is not an LP12!

Obviously the parts of the turntable that connect the arm to the bearing/platter have been made of wood, acrylic, metal - pretty much any material that is at least relatively solid, and some that aren't, like air - in all kinds of turntables (not to mention in numerous poorly thought "upgrades" for the LP12).  There are even some turntables where the arm mount pod is completely separate from the turntable and is only connected by what they both sit on.  We all know about the closed loop system that works so well in the LP12 but not everybody agrees with us.

So, yes, there will be damping involved in the "sub chassis" of the Solstice as 47 layers of wood requires some kind of adhesive.  In this case a decision has obviously been made that it is in some way preferable (another place where that white paper would come in handy).  The proof of the pudding...

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2 minutes ago, ThomasOK said:

Ah, but this is not an LP12!

Obviously the parts of the turntable that connect the arm to the bearing/platter have been made of wood, acrylic, metal - pretty much any material that is at least relatively solid, and some that aren't, like air - in all kinds of turntables (not to mention in numerous poorly thought "upgrades" for the LP12).  There are even some turntables where the arm mount pod is completely separate from the turntable and is only connected by what they both sit on.  We all know about the closed loop system that works so well in the LP12 but not everybody agrees with us.

So, yes, there will be damping involved in the "sub chassis" of the Solstice as 47 layers of wood requires some kind of adhesive.  In this case a decision has obviously been made that it is in some way preferable (another place where that white paper would come in handy).  The proof of the pudding...

I was just writing this when Thomas replied. " I'm going to let Thomas add his thoughts here but I thought from an engineering standpoint, what vibrates and how much things isolate, vibrate, resonate or dampen on a turntable varies from turntable to turntable, arm to arm, cartridge to cartridge, etc. "  

Edited by mskaye
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