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Digital out output


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11 minutes ago, MartinC said:

This would be an argument for no attenuation to be used though, since louder almost always sounds better.

Until your ears go pop for good đŸ˜© Regards Andrew 

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Just now, andrew s said:

Until your ears go pop for good đŸ˜© Regards Andrew 

Well yes but we're talking side-by-side hifi demos here, with one unit being just a bit louder than another 🙂.

(Doing some speaker measurements this morning so not read the earlier link yet. Possibly I should have said SNR rather than dynamic range? I'm sure there's some detriment from unnecessarily attenuating signals...)

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14 minutes ago, MartinC said:

(Doing some speaker measurements this morning so not read the earlier link yet. Possibly I should have said SNR rather than dynamic range? I'm sure there's some detriment from unnecessarily attenuating signals...)

An analog attenuator at the output effects both the noise and the signal equally but this is not (always?) the case if it's in the digital domain. So that the digital attenuation may not have a good a SNR as with the a analog attenuator.

Regards Andrew 

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16 hours ago, Bokke said:

Had anyone experienced different levels of volume output on different sources.

Output from laptop is a decent level and pay on 50 % 

Optical output from TV much quieter 

Output from streamer different level 

All into same dac 

Have you guys also experienced this

Hi,

For the same file being played on the Laptop digital output, and the Streamer digital output, being different in output level on the same DAC, then there must be digital attenuation applied in either.

My audio processor has a digital output, and they state that the output level is not modified, so TOSLINK input data is replicated 100% on the TOSLINK output of the audio processor.

For the TV, it is possible that they have synchronised the optical output to the volume control of the TV sound, but the lower volume may just be that the level transmitted by the is low. I have to increase the volume on my audio processor to get the volume at the right level (optical input) compared to the TV HDMI sound.

The optimal would be that the digital sources entering the DAC are all unmodified by the source (no attenuation), so there is less chance of any digital modification from reducing the quality of the signal. It does depend on how the attenuation of each component (streamer, laptop, TV) implements the attenuation.

Regards,

Shadders.

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4 minutes ago, Shadders said:

For the TV, it is possible that they have synchronised the optical output to the volume control of the TV sound

I'd have thought this is unlikely, since generally the optical output will be used when the TV's own speakers are muted. 

Edited by MartinC
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3 minutes ago, Shadders said:

Hi,

For the same file being played on the Laptop digital output, and the Streamer digital output, being different in output level on the same DAC, then there must be digital attenuation applied in either.

My audio processor has a digital output, and they state that the output level is not modified, so TOSLINK input data is replicated 100% on the TOSLINK output of the audio processor.

For the TV, it is possible that they have synchronised the optical output to the volume control of the TV sound, but the lower volume may just be that the level transmitted by the is low. I have to increase the volume on my audio processor to get the volume at the right level (optical input) compared to the TV HDMI sound.

The optimal would be that the digital sources entering the DAC are all unmodified by the source (no attenuation), so there is less chance of any digital modification from reducing the quality of the signal. It does depend on how the attenuation of each component (streamer, laptop, TV) implements the attenuation.

Regards,

Shadders.

Thank you for that 

In your opinion would it be possible for certain streamers to sound more louder as to impress on demo for example innous zen mini compared to the more expensive zenith? (As an example)

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10 minutes ago, MartinC said:

I'd have thought this is unlikely, since generally the optical output will be used when the TV's own speakers are muted. 

Hi,

It is unlikely, but is possible, as most TV's now have an embedded OS.

Regards,

Shadders.

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11 minutes ago, Bokke said:

Thank you for that 

In your opinion would it be possible for certain streamers to sound more louder as to impress on demo for example innous zen mini compared to the more expensive zenith? (As an example)

Hi,

My DVR modifies the sound level via HDMI, but my Dune Media player does not via TOSLINK.

It is possible that it is a programming or design difference, that was never thought about at the time of design of the two products. Yet it is known that salesmen increase the volume of their preferred equipment to make it sound better in a demo.

I suppose the caveat is that level match the two, to see if there is a difference.

Regards,

Shadders.

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3 minutes ago, Bokke said:

Thank you for that 

In your opinion would it be possible for certain streamers to sound more louder as to impress on demo for example innous zen mini compared to the more expensive zenith? (As an example)

This seems to have got way more complicated than it needs to.

One or more of the three that you comparing appears to be reprocessing the digital stream as opposed to passing it through. TVs are culprits for this because they tend to assume an audio visual system and reprocess to 48kHz no matter what the input. They can also by default apply volume control based on the volume control setting on the TV. So when I take the optical output from my TV to my DAC the TV remote volume control still works.

I have not read all three pages but have you checked if any of the other devices has a volume control within the player software. If so this needs changing to ‘Fixed Output’ or 100%.

But in answer to your question about some streamers (you mention Zen Mini and Zenith) altering the volume to sound more impressive demo, then I would say no and that is certainly not something I have ever come across. ‘Decent’ streamers will pass the file through at 100% volume unless you intentionally engage any built in software volume control  (which can of course degrade the sound quality but that is a different subject) but I have never come across one that can increase the volume above 100%.

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, Fourlegs said:

This seems to have got way more complicated than it needs to.

One or more of the three that you comparing appears to be reprocessing the digital stream as opposed to passing it through. TVs are culprits for this because they tend to assume an audio visual system and reprocess to 48kHz no matter what the input. They can also by default apply volume control based on the volume control setting on the TV. So when I take the optical output from my TV to my DAC the TV remote volume control still works.

I have not read all three pages but have you checked if any of the other devices has a volume control within the player software. If so this needs changing to ‘Fixed Output’ or 100%.

But in answer to your question about some streamers (you mention Zen Mini and Zenith) altering the volume to sound more impressive demo, then I would say no and that is certainly not something I have ever come across. ‘Decent’ streamers will pass the file through at 100% volume unless you intentionally engage any built in software volume control  (which can of course degrade the sound quality but that is a different subject) but I have never come across one that can increase the volume above 100%.

Thank you 

Just to be clear I was not picking on innous and they are my favourite transports but was only using them as an example to answer my questions. (As I know the different names)

I'm only concerned with different output levels in digital out as I hear different levels of volume on different sources.

Edited by Bokke
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On 01/08/2021 at 13:04, Bokke said:

Thank you 

Just to be clear I was not picking on innous and they are my favourite transports but was only using them as an example to answer my questions. (As I know the different names)

I'm only concerned with different output levels in digital out as I hear different levels of volume on different sources.

No Problem.

The task is really to find which ones are using volume control or digital processing, or perhaps more importantly which one is NOT doing those things then you can use that as a base to assess the others. The television and the laptop are my suspects for fiddling with the signal.

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I don't know about the Innuos servers but the Aries upsamples. And it may reduce gain to avoid intersample overs (any upsampling device or chip should). An email to the manufacturer might solve the mistery.

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