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Yesterday a mains cable sceptic had to revise his thoughts.


Fourlegs

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1 hour ago, DomT said:

I never said that he said that. I mentioned bit depth to Andrew S. Shadders then quoted me out of context and I called him out and posted the full screenshot of my full quote and not the part that he cut out; just look at the screen shot and compare with what Shadders wrote if this has upset you (1) 

And Shadders still has not stated what ‘bits’ he thinks gets changed when I change a reverb send to a vocal track. I guess by now that we will never get an answer and he will continue to claim that ‘bits’ get changed because he is behaving like a troll. (2)

When studios use DAW multi-tracking we don’t need to consider how many tracks we use for fear of a drop in audio quality because there is none. It’s baffling to me why hifi people think that there maybe a drop in quality when it’s already established for decades by DAW users that there isn’t.

But maybe people in this thread think that a simple recording of piano and voice sounds better than a 48 track piece because each additional track used affects the ‘bits’ in someways and this affects the final stereo master. This is a bit like me suggesting to a doctor that if a person has a headache that he should drill a hole in their skull. 

(1) I didn't mention my emotions and wasn't aware that I'd expressed any.

(2) On the contrary, maybe I'm trolling too. Except I'm not, I'm  trying to understand and ideally reconcile (possibly a forlorn hope).
If you add reverb to a track, you change the digital file and this is what I presume is meant by changing the bits. If you didn't "change the bits", the pre- and post-reverb files would sound identical. Are we getting hung up on different interpretations of "changing the bits"?

I make no comment on the tracks/DAW points as I don't work in a studio and I don't know who said what about those and they may be distracting from the fundamental point about whether bits are changed. I suspect we may be getting hung up on the difference between layman and professional language. Consider this post a plea to get "back to basics".

Thanks,

Flashie

Edited by TheFlash
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1 hour ago, DomT said:

You are missing a complete understanding of how a DAW works. Here is an example of how it works. What is 1+1? Is it 2 or it is 1.95? What is 1+1 +1? Is it 3 or 2.90? Some people on here, not understanding how a DAW works, are suggesting that 1+1+1 does not equal 3. The answer is 3 and it is only 3.  

Dunning-Ks a go-go

Coming soon: What is a digital file, and if so, could there be more than one?

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1 hour ago, Shadders said:

Hi,

As others have tried to explain, any changes to the sound you implement such as reverb (your example) will change the bits.

Digital audio consists of sample rate, bit depth (number of bits per sample), and the actual sample values themselves. The sample values will consist of 24bits (assumed) and when you implement changes in reverb, the 24bit values change, and hence the bits change. This is what is meant by changing the bits.

Regards,

Shadders.

If you add the reverb to the actually audio track the bits will change, but if you use send effect of the plugin to the audio to be affected the bits do not change. 

Meant to say the size of the audio will change but not necessary the bit rate.

The bit rate is always established at the start of the song Project

Edited by Nativebon
Typo
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1 minute ago, Nativebon said:

If you add the reverb to the actually audio track the bits will change, but if you use send effect to the plugin of the audio to be affected the bits do not change. 

Hi,

At some stage, the bits have to be written to disk, and if reverb is included in the final stereo mix, the bits will change.

What was stated is that anything changing the sound which is applied to the digital sample values, will change the bits. Else there can not be a change in sound.

For mains leads, they don't change the bits, and this was why unsighted tests are required to remove the expectation bias.

Regards,

Shadders.

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I can’t be bothered any more. 

Edited by DomT
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1 minute ago, Shadders said:

Hi,

At some stage, the bits have to be written to disk, and if reverb is included in the final stereo mix, the bits will change.

What was stated is that anything changing the sound which is applied to the digital sample values, will change the bits. Else there can not be a change in sound.

For mains leads, they don't change the bits, and this was why unsighted tests are required to remove the expectation bias.

Regards,

Shadders.

Sorry you quoted me after I made amendments

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1 minute ago, DomT said:

This thread has been so side tracked thanks to Shadders but sorry guys I just need to respond one last time. Shadders has now proven, beyond doubt, that he *really* doesn’t know what he is taking about. I haven’t laughed so hard in a long time. 

His response is so hilarious and factually WRONG on so many levels. Don’t take my word for it Google is your friend. You set the bit depth and sample rate in the settings of your DAW for the entire song. Recording reverb to a track in your DAW will not change your DAW’s system settings. 😂😂😂😂😂

Hi,

Pressing buttons on a computer application is not the same as understanding digital audio or DSP.

The problem here, is that you lack any awareness of digital audio theory, and believe your computer applications are the entire scope of digital audio.

Regards,

Shadders.

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3 minutes ago, Nativebon said:

Sorry you quoted me after I made amendments

Hi,

No problem. It is not the sample rate or bit depth that is being discussed, and hence the bit rate will not change.

Regards,

Shadders.

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...

Edited by TheFlash
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I used to know a guy who loved mains cables.  When his wife found out she left him ?  :o

Cheers !    :off:

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1 hour ago, TheFlash said:

(1) I didn't mention my emotions and wasn't aware that I'd expressed any.

(2) On the contrary, maybe I'm trolling too. Except I'm not, I'm  trying to understand and ideally reconcile (possibly a forlorn hope).
If you add reverb to a track, you change the digital file and this is what I presume is meant by changing the bits. If you didn't "change the bits", the pre- and post-reverb files would sound identical. Are we getting hung up on different interpretations of "changing the bits"?

I make no comment on the tracks/DAW points as I don't work in a studio and I don't know who said what about those and they may be distracting from the fundamental point about whether bits are changed. I suspect we may be getting hung up on the difference between layman and professional language. Consider this post a plea to get "back to basics".

Thanks,

Flashie

33 minutes ago, DomT said:

I can’t be bothered any more. 

But why?

Although I suspect your reply was aimed at Shadders, please tell me if you also "can't be bothered" to address my very simple question. How does the sound change when you add reverb to the mix if the resultant digital file and its bits don't also change?

Thanks.

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😴😴

Wheres that bloody ignore thread button? 

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13 minutes ago, TheFlash said:

But why?

Although I suspect your reply was aimed at Shadders, please tell me if you also "can't be bothered" to address my very simple question. How does the sound change when you add reverb to the mix if the resultant digital file and its bits don't also change?

Thanks.

@TheFlash I know this question is for DomT, bit I'll try and throw some light here. See what I did there..:D

Once a sample rate and bit rate is established at the start of the song/Project in a DAW this can't be changed. Let's say 24bits at 48KHz, every thing from henceforth will be captured at this rate. Adding insert reverb effect to a song or track will not change the bitrate but may change size of file. 

When using a plugin as a 'send effect' this will not affect the audio clip in any form apart from the effect intended.

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6 hours ago, Fourlegs said:

Between you and Shadders you have set about sucking the fun out of this thread. But I should not be surprised I guess.

The usual suspects do the same thing every time with these threads unfortunately and they make the forum far less enjoyable than it should be.

The opening post was an interesting report on an experience that went against expectations. Any attempts at discussion about this sort of thing gets drowned out every time. 

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