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LINN KAROUSEL VERSUS MOBER BEARING WITH MOBER STAINLESS SUB-PLATTER?


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2 minutes ago, HBerg said:

It looks like the top plate is not flush with the plinth in the left corner. If so, it will degrade the sound of your LP12.

That’s what I thought if the top plate is inverted the bend won’t work as supposed to and I imagine the belt being under a bit of duress due to a leaning capstan pulley on the motor.

Just my Tuppence worth I wouldn’t have any of these mods..👎

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Perhaps this thread should be renamed “How to turn your LP12 into something else”?

’troll :cafe: :pop:

Edited by Moomintroll
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13 hours ago, HBerg said:

It looks like the top plate is not flush with the plinth in the left corner. If so, it will degrade the sound of your LP12.

You are correct!
The natural bend in the original LINN top-plate meant that when the top-plate was reversed, it didn't quite sit flush with the plinth.
Nevertheless, it sounded so much better reversed, that I decided to live with it.

It is a very easily fully-reversible mod, for those of you willing to try it.

Moving forward, I will reverse the top-plate back to its original position, for a nice flush fit to the plinth, but only once I have had new motor mounting and pulley holes drilled in the top-plate, in-line with the tonearm - where the DC Motor currently mounts.

 

Edited by SONDEKNZ
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It‘s not only an optical issue. The topplate is one of the most important parts of the LP12. It should fit 100%. Finger-Tapping around the Topplate should sound the same! That‘s key!

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1 minute ago, Ben Webster said:

It‘s not only an optical issue. The topplate is one of the most important parts of the LP12. It should fit 100%. Finger-Tapping around the Topplate should sound the same! That‘s key!

I don't doubt it.

I suspect that my removing the tangential motor thrust - effectively pulling the platter across the arm in the original motor position - and aligning that thrust with the tonearm, delivered a bigger sonic benefit, than any small losses caused by having the top-plate lifting in the front left corner by a few mm.

If it hadn't sounded a lot better, I would have reversed it immediately - even for purely atheistic reasons.

This all means that once I return the top-plate to its rightful fitting - with new motor mount holes maintaining tonearm aligned platter thrust - I should be in for yet another lift in sonic performance.

It does make me wonder how long it will be before LINN finally moves the motor position on their new LP12s.

Let's see.

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28 minutes ago, SONDEKNZ said:

It does make me wonder how long it will be before LINN finally moves the motor position on their new LP12s.

Oh, I suspect this was tried a long, long time ago. With an AC motor, you’re putting the rotating magnetic field closer to the cartridge, which will be affected by this. You may actually like what this does, no problem, but it will be masking musical information. Obviously this still applies with decks with AC motors. When the Radikal was launched, Linn demonstrated this using a moving coil cartridge. Even with the motor where it is, moving the cartridge over the record, towards the spindle, with full gain, the hum is very pronounced. 
I’ve no experience of your motor system. My only experience of OL DC motors was over 25 years ago and they were difficult beasts to set the speed with - they had drifted every time it was checked. I hope they’ve fixed that in the intervening years.

’troll

Edited by Moomintroll
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1 hour ago, Moomintroll said:

Oh, I suspect this was tried a long, long time ago. With an AC motor, you’re putting the rotating magnetic field closer to the cartridge, which will be affected by this. You may actually like what this does, no problem, but it will be masking musical information. Obviously this still applies with decks with AC motors. When the Radikal was launched, Linn demonstrated this using a moving coil cartridge. Even with the motor where it is, moving the cartridge over the record, towards the spindle, with full gain, the hum is very pronounced. 
I’ve no experience of your motor system. My only experience of OL DC motors was over 25 years ago and they were difficult beasts to set the speed with - they had drifted every time it was checked. I hope they’ve fixed that in the intervening years.

’troll

Good info. Thanks. That makes sense.

On this basis, with the new DC motor location, I should have experienced some hum - but I have not.


I guess what you are saying is hum or not, information via my LOMC cartridge could be getting masked by very low-level (inaudible) hum.  I guess that is possible. Perhaps you are correct.  Ultimately, I used my ears and stayed with the better sounding outcome.

The first ten years with the OL DC Motor kit were frustrating with speed fluctuations.  Mark and his team at OL eventually figured-out that the (then) new residential florescent power-save light bulbs were wreaking havoc with their DC controllers. Once I had raised the alarm, Mark fitted a new controller board - for peanuts - and the issue disappeared.  To my knowledge, the newer LED power-save light bulbs don't appear to have the same issues.

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55 minutes ago, SONDEKNZ said:

Good info. Thanks. That makes sense.

On this basis, with the new DC motor location, I should have experienced some hum - but I have not.


I guess what you are saying is hum or not, information via my LOMC cartridge could be getting masked by very low-level (inaudible) hum.  I guess that is possible. Perhaps you are correct.  Ultimately, I used my ears and stayed with the better sounding outcome.

The first ten years with the OL DC Motor kit were frustrating with speed fluctuations.  Mark and his team at OL eventually figured-out that the (then) new residential florescent power-save light bulbs were wreaking havoc with their DC controllers. Once I had raised the alarm, Mark fitted a new controller board - for peanuts - and the issue disappeared.  To my knowledge, the newer LED power-save light bulbs don't appear to have the same issues.

Quote

The first ten years with the OL DC Motor kit were frustrating with speed fluctuations. 

Wow, a very good customer, lives with the speed fluctuation for 10 years. Customer contact me if they see the Mober DC motor LCD displays real time speed a little shift, may only happens one time in 2-3 years .  I met a guy bought that OL DC motor as you did 5 years ago in an Audio show when I demonstrated my Mober DC motor control , he told me he did not like that OL DC motor control and bought my Mose/Hercules and had been using for 10 years. When that gentlemen saw my Mober DC motor speed demonstration, the next day he came to the show again with cash wanted to buy my Mober DC motor control in the show .   

About the 7 o'clock motor position, there are many ways to tweak the LP12 to get different sound, why spent so much effort to move the motor position. I did the comparison many years ago, only subtle change in sound, not significant improvement in sound.  I keep that 7 o'clock motor because I can fix two motors AC and DC motor on the same LP12. I need to do the test from time to time. 

36063894_1506104416157330_3437990581643509760_o.jpg

Edited by Mober DC Motor
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6 hours ago, SONDEKNZ said:

It does make me wonder how long it will be before LINN finally moves the motor position on their new LP12s.

I would say that is never, as in their experience, and mine, it is musically less good rather than better.  If I wanted something with as many holes in it as the theory about aligning the motor thrust with the arm I'd buy some Swiss cheese.  (Oh wait, I just bought a big chunk of Jarlsberg last night at Costco.  That will do.):minikev:

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On 17/09/2021 at 07:43, Mr Kandid said:

That’s what I thought if the top plate is inverted the bend won’t work as supposed to and I imagine the belt being under a bit of duress due to a leaning capstan pulley on the motor.

Just my Tuppence worth I wouldn’t have any of these mods..👎

Thou shall not mess with something that is pretty damn good to begin with especially when you make it look like it has been "Frankenstein'd" with discarded parts.

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5 hours ago, Mober DC Motor said:

Wow, a very good customer, lives with the speed fluctuation for 10 years. Customer contact me if they see the Mober DC motor LCD displays real time speed a little shift, may only happens one time in 2-3 years .  I met a guy bought that OL DC motor as you did 5 years ago in an Audio show when I demonstrated my Mober DC motor control , he told me he did not like that OL DC motor control and bought my Mose/Hercules and had been using for 10 years. When that gentlemen saw my Mober DC motor speed demonstration, the next day he came to the show again with cash wanted to buy my Mober DC motor control in the show .   

About the 7 o'clock motor position, there are many ways to tweak the LP12 to get different sound, why spent so much effort to move the motor position. I did the comparison many years ago, only subtle change in sound, not significant improvement in sound.  I keep that 7 o'clock motor because I can fix two motors AC and DC motor on the same LP12. I need to do the test from time to time. 

36063894_1506104416157330_3437990581643509760_o.jpg

Wow!  That's a nice looking underbelly!

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Edmund:  So you just switch the belt over to compare the two motors?

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6 hours ago, sktn77a said:

Edmund:  So you just switch the belt over to compare the two motors?

No, I had never intrigued by the 7 o'clock motor theory, never convinced me with the idea that pull the platter at different place. I do it because I need an AC/DC LP12 for my testing purpose, I need to test AC motor or DC motor from time to time. I cannot do it all the time on  my flagship LP12. 

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On 16/09/2021 at 04:55, SONDEKNZ said:

Fair enough. But in taking this approach, this caution needs to apply to all LP12 upgrades, not just the MOBER upgrades.

[QUOTE] ...accepting these anecdotal report of the "dramatic improvement" that has been "widely reported by happy Linn owners". [UNQUOTE] could just as easily apply to the rave reports about the LINN Karousel.

I think we need to be consistent.

That's a good point. But it's pretty easy to gain your own insights into Linn upgrades, if you have a Linn dealer in your perimeter. Mine is a 70 minutes drive away (one distance), and I'm never shy to invest a few hours, and listen myself. Over the past few decades, though, I cannot report to have auditioned any Linn upgrade that did not improve the sound. It's only the "how much" that varies.

Never heard a Mober though. And I confess, that Edmund managed to downgrade my emotions with respect to his products from being interested to being opposed, based on his own explainations and behaviour on the old Linn forum. I finally rated it as blunt advertising. And I doubt that it is exactly a good idea, to go to a vendor's website - or an owners club - to advertise competitive products. If it's not hostile, it's at least not very polite!

Edited by TooManyCatweazles
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1 hour ago, TooManyCatweazles said:

That's a good point. But it's pretty easy to gain your own insights into Linn upgrades, if you have a Linn dealer in your perimeter. Mine is a 70 minutes drive away (one distance), and I'm never shy to invest a few hours, and listen myself. Over the past few decades, though, I cannot report to have auditioned any Linn upgrade that did not improve the sound. It's only the "how much" that varies.

Never heard a Mober though. And I confess, that Edmund managed to downgrade my emotions with respect to his products from being interested to being opposed, based on his own explainations and behaviour on the old Linn forum. I finally rated it as blunt advertising. And I doubt that it is exactly a good idea, to go to a vendor's website - or an owners club - to advertise competitive products. If it's not hostile, it's at least not very polite!

Very good point allows me to elaborate more. 

In the old Linn forum, I remember Linn expressed in the forum that Linn LP12 is an open architecture  , and welcome third party upgrades for Linn LP12.  I see many third parties dealers  promotes their ideas and products in the forum, and many third party dealers were supported by many cheers leaders , keep refreshing the promoting threads  every minutes.  But the same people attack me and my Mober upgrade ideas,. Inevitably, I need to debate myself. Surely all can express their opinions, it is the same for me.   I am not advertising any product in this forum, but some mention my name or Mober upgrade, I need to response. I do not know why response to the forum with my name is impolite , or need to clarify it is not hostile? My kind advice is not to click the thread with title  with word Mober  , 99% thread  are not related to Mober discussion. 

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