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Linn 50th Anniversary


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16 hours ago, akamatsu said:

Okay. In that case, how about a commemorative turntable mat with a picture of Ivor on it? :D

I'm fresh out of ideas.

I would suggest it being laser etched into the platter except that since they don't believe in clocking the platter I will have to mess up the image to get the platters properly aligned.

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1 hour ago, akamatsu said:

A smiley Ivor and a frowny Gilad. :D:(

We've figured it out. Close the thread!

“The ultimate :D:( LP12 is not life like, it’s your life”

Period.

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Can I have a wide wheelbase LP12 with a 12” Ekos SE please?🤓

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On 15/09/2021 at 10:36, akamatsu said:

I heard this from the dealer queried, the actual person, that is.

I've been there. My comments at this point are - there are dealers who believe they can dictate how manufacturers do business, even down to which products they should develop and/or offer. I've seen many of them push their weight around in this arena too many times, and with many different brands besides Linn. The businesses which think this way, are soon to become irrelevant because things will continue to progress without their antiquated ideas of how things should be "sold".

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On 15/09/2021 at 10:36, akamatsu said:

I heard this from the dealer queried, the actual person, that is.

I've been there. My comments at this point are - there are dealers who believe they can dictate how manufacturers do business, even down to which products they should develop and/or offer. I've seen many of them push their weight around in this arena too many times, and with many different brands besides Linn. The businesses which think this way, are soon to become irrelevant because things will continue to progress without their antiquated ideas of how things should be "sold".

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Manufacturers who use their dealers as bi-directional communication way to their customers could be very successful.

Edited by Ben Webster
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7 minutes ago, HIGHWAY61 said:

With the never ending increase in the Internet, and the demise of High Street shops of all types I suspect the traditional "dealer" will be gone within a few years anyway.

When traditional dealer act like internet dealer: yes. 
So they should offer services and information internet can‘t deliver.

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The economics of the modern High Street already show that all that will soon be left will be : Fast-Food outlets, Coffee Shops, Betting Shops and Charity Shops. I fail to see why HiFi Dealers have a secret formula that will allow them to exist on the High Street when every other competing sector finds their economic model is outdated. 

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3 hours ago, Ben Webster said:

Manufacturers who use their dealers as bi-directional communication way to their customers could be very successful.

7 hours ago, Elad Repooc said:

I've been there. My comments at this point are - there are dealers who believe they can dictate how manufacturers do business, even down to which products they should develop and/or offer. I've seen many of them push their weight around in this arena too many times, and with many different brands besides Linn. The businesses which think this way, are soon to become irrelevant because things will continue to progress without their antiquated ideas of how things should be "sold".

Your 2 comments are right for Linn, I think.

(Extreme) example in the Ben view of bi-directional communication:
The biggest customers of the Linn shop have Klimax solos in active with Komri or 350.
The digital source at this level of system should be one of the best available, money no object.
Pre-DSM Katalyst was not there, and when Katalyst came, that was way better but not enough against a DCS Vivaldi DAC + Upsampler.
Linn and dealer had some big conversations and listening to agree that there was better DAC on the market, ones that were made at home (FPGA). Money no objet again.
There was Linn customers for that, and at that time, no answer in the line product.
Now, we have the NGKDSM that compete with the DCS Vivaldi DAC + Upsampler.

(Extreme) example in the Elad view of innovation freedom for the manufacturer:
The Klimax DS back in 2007 was the opposite of a bi-directional product at first.
It had pro and cons for that.
1) It defined a new kind of product, that will become a best seller for Linn in the future.
And it was not a product the dealers and costumers wanted.
2) The start was really hard, as at that time, the ecosystem was not there: infinite network problems (new in hi-fi), no fiber, the use of a NAS in the listening room, the big time CD burn, first apps with bug, and so on………
Without the perseverance and force of conviction from the dealer, no customer could have been confident with this new product. Congrats to dealers then (bi-directional!)

Linn need both: innovation et dealers.

And in the economics of the modern High Street, Linn would have not sell one Klimax DS… I think.

Edited by Chris 1970
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7 hours ago, Chris 1970 said:

And in the economics of the modern High Street, Linn would have not sell one Klimax DS… I think.

I wouldn’t go that far. Surely without other actions, the number of sold DSs would be considerably lower. 
But had they prioritized additional focus on getting products (succesfully) reviewed in most relevant magazines, presence at hifi-shows, even some pop-up stores in major cities and above all a generous try before you buy policy, I am sure many existing Klimax customers would have bought a KDS. Sure, when the DS was all new, there were lots of (and still are some I’m afraid) people having network issues, but they really should have made the software and installation instructions much better (along with online support.) After all, an Apple-TV does not require dealer installation. But naturally, all these activities also come at a cost.

Since car manufacturers are or are preparing to sell cars online, why shouldn’t Linn be able to sell streamers online or all other products for that matter?

And with SO2 (or at least SO3) system installation for those who like room compensation should not require dealer assistance either, but could be offered via link or for extremely profitable customers at cost via some special arrangement.

Edited by 90sLinn
Added SO
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"The report of my death was an exaggeration."

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7 hours ago, Chris 1970 said:

The start was really hard, as at that time, the ecosystem was not there: infinite network problems (new in hi-fi)

Personally, I attribute this to a general attitude among sales consultants, installation technicians, manufacturer representatives, and many, many others within the HiFi/audio community which is one that is not interested in progressively learning more and more about what it is that they do at the end of the day. They believe, think, or imagine that they have "everything figured out" and there isn't anything more to learn about their profession or hobby for that matter.

While I will be the first to admit that yes, networks are complicated, and yes, there can be challenges in implementing them properly (I have likely run into a large majority of them), formulating a rudimentary set of "best practices" when deploying a network should have been within any competent audio retailer's capabilities at the time of the launch of the Linn DS. If they didn't know they were going to have to learn more about computers and networks they should have been paying more attention to how the music they listened to and evaluated their myriad of products with, was made with computers, and relied on properly implemented networks. Prior to DS we had home automation systems, lighting control systems, remote controls and touchscreens, flat panel displays, video components, and countless other existing audio components which utilized a network connection for some such or another reason. Logitech Squeezebox, Sonos, Audio Request, Escient, Kaleidescape, and a number of other audio products all preceded Linn DS and all required a knowledge of how to configure a local area network.

What I have seen in the decade-plus since the release of Linn DS is a continued hesitancy on the part of a large majority of high end audio retailers, as well as custom integrators, (oh, I suppose I should also mention the reviewers and press too) to gain a better comprehension of how a local area network operates, in addition to how DSP and active systems operate, all of which are technologies quite common to the "professional" audio world. In fact I used to often make the point in conversations that as I see it Linn brings what are common technologies in the professional and music production sphere, to a domestic environment in a way that is elegant and easy for the end user to operate if installed properly, and with commonly available, off-the-shelf network equipment to boot.

As a final note (yes, I am painfully aware of the length of these drawn-out diatribes), I say this because I have seen not only Linn, but many other brands, invest a lot of time and energy into attempting to train and educate their dealers with respect to local area networking, only to have very few come out of those meetings actually retaining much of the information that was shared. Some attribute it to the complexity of networking, but time and time again my observation has been it's more due to an unwillingness on the part of individuals to spend the time to learn about things in order to be of better service to their clients. 

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8 hours ago, Chris 1970 said:

Pre-DSM Katalyst was not there, and when Katalyst came, that was way better but not enough against a DCS Vivaldi DAC + Upsampler.

I have heard this from people whose ears I mostly trust, and yet I have also heard from others which I also mostly trust that the opposite was indeed the case (the Katalyst Klimax bested the dCS). Since I have never done the comparison I cannot really comment, only to say that the claim the dCS Vivaldi is a better sounding source component is not a universally held opinion, and people should perform their due diligence. 

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3 hours ago, Elad Repooc said:

Personally, I attribute this to a general attitude among sales consultants, installation technicians, manufacturer representatives, and many, many others within the HiFi/audio community which is one that is not interested in progressively learning more and more about what it is that they do at the end of the day. They believe, think, or imagine that they have "everything figured out" and there isn't anything more to learn about their profession or hobby for that matter.

4 hours ago, 90sLinn said:

I wouldn’t go that far. Surely without other actions, the number of sold DSs would be considerably lower. 
But had they prioritized additional focus on getting products (succesfully) reviewed in most relevant magazines, presence at hifi-shows, even some pop-up stores in major cities and above all a generous try before you buy policy, I am sure many existing Klimax customers would have bought a KDS. Sure, when the DS was all new, there were lots of (and still are some I’m afraid) people having network issues, but they really should have made the software and installation instructions much better (along with online support.) After all, an Apple-TV does not require dealer installation. But naturally, all these activities also come at a cost.

Elad, 90sLinn,

You make good points of course: hi-fi dealers in general don't like change in the first place.
But isn't it the same for dealers in general? And for people in general?

I can just had my part:

In 2007, I lived with the same Linn system as today: CD12, LP12, Komri active with 4 Klimax Chakra.

The system got bigger and bigger since 1998, when I bought an old Karik Numerik, and began to be interested by Linn products. I got then a Kremlin, then a Linn pre-amp with one Klout, then 2 Klout to drive my B&W 805 signature, then active Keltiks, then passive Komri with solos, then today. I can say it was a quick and – certainly not – a reasonable race…

In 2007, of course, my dealer invited me to some listening sessions of the brand new Klimax DS.
He worked very hard to make it shine, with a new employee who was there to get it right.

But it didn't make it, AT ALL.

Why?

Because that was not something I dreamed of… listening to music with a computer like system, bugs and no more disc in the hands ??? You are pulling my leg !

I worked all day on a computer, that was enough for me.

I was "only" 37. Not very old. I was not afraid of computer at all. I was and I'm still the boy the family calls when something doesn't work in that domain 🙂

The sound of the Klimax DS was very analytical in my memory – perhaps more focus than the CD12 – but really, I didn't care.

The CD experience was soooooo much better overall for me.

So…

I guess I wasn't the only customer to be in conflict with this new thing in 2007.
It was not a problem from the dealer side, it was a problem of desire from the customer side.
Imagine the – probably – majority of older customers who were afraid of computers at that time… my parents for example. Today, they have a MacBook, an iPhone… But they are still not confident at all with that technology…

In 2021

Music streaming is everywhere. Things have changed a lot.
But… Apple introduced lossless in June this year… it was a no way for me before that…
That's 14 years later, and I'm still not completely happy with the idea of no disc and computer 😬

Edited by Chris 1970
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