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Linn Ekstatik & new Radikal


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Good Evening All,

I'm going to ask the same question here as I did on the Lejonklou forum last night.......

Just occasionally I wonder about the focus on the accuracy of a turntable rotating at 33 1/3 RPM.

How accurately does the machine that makes the master pressing disc rotate?

Regards

Richard

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1 minute ago, linesrg said:

Good Evening All,

I'm going to ask the same question here as I did on the Lejonklou forum last night.......

Just occasionally I wonder about the focus on the accuracy of a turntable rotating at 33 1/3 RPM.

How accurately does the machine that makes the master pressing disc rotate?

Regards

Richard

Have no idea but that is just an interesting question!

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11 minutes ago, frans5508 said:

I wonder about the focus on the accuracy of a turntable rotating at 33 1/3 RPM

i guess that it's all about reproducing it as close as possible to how it's recorded/produced and that it's always better to have at least the LP12 run as accurately possible at 33.3 RPM rather than the speed being off on both sides. Just thinking out loud, not limited by any knowledge...

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Super Wammer

I heard Eksatik and Radikal 2 on a Tangerine plinthed Klimax deck at the weekend.

It was playing through KDSM/3, Akurate Exaktbox/1, 4200s and Annerstedt-Hegge Acoustic A2a speakers.  It was the best analogue source playing at the Horten show.  It seems some how effortless and natural.

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On 08/11/2021 at 16:16, HBerg said:

Fair enough. Have you tested two identical LP12s except SS vs Karmen?

I have tested two identical LP12s with SS and Khan and also at a different time with SS and Karmen.  I found the SS top plate to be easily more musical than the Khan.  While the Karmen was better than the Khan it was still less musical and more congested sounding than the SS top plate.

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10 minutes ago, ThomasOK said:

  I found the SS top plate to be easily more musical than the Khan.  While the Karmen was better than the Khan it was still less musical and more congested sounding than the SS top plate.

I have to disagree.  I know many many people over the course of the years who have moved on from the SS top plate.  Everyone is much happier.  I would not be surprised if the next official Linn upgrade will be in the form of a new top plate.

To each his own.  Different strokes for different folks

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Ultimate speed accuracy is nice to have, but I wonder how important it is in the big picture, particularly if you have upstream gear that will never be able to resolve that accuracy??

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Speed accuracy probably is not important. For the few with perfect pitch I wonder how far off pitch they can detect - I can't imagine it is many decimal places of accuracy. What will be important is stability of the frequency, i.e. does it vary? A DC motor, as used by Radikal, changes frequency with the value of the applied DC voltage so any noise or modulation of that voltage will cause frequency modulation of the motor. My understanding is that Radikal monitors the rpm at start-up, adjusts the voltage for best accuracy and then fixes that voltage to avoid any further modulation i.e. the frequency is set once and does not change until the next start-up. Contrasting this with the Mober DC scheme that is constantly updating the frequency, that guarantees the frequency is modulated at the update rate.

So, it would seem, there isn't much to improve in Radikal - perhaps there is more resolution to the fixed motor voltage (probably supplied from a DAC) but I doubt that added accuracy does anything. Perhaps there is more filtering of that fixed voltage to keep more extraneous noise out. Or, perhaps, most of the improvement comes from the new motor?

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8 hours ago, glevethan said:

I have to disagree.  I know many many people over the course of the years who have moved on from the SS top plate.  Everyone is much happier.  I would not be surprised if the next official Linn upgrade will be in the form of a new top plate.

To each his own.  Different strokes for different folks

I did so, bought a Kahn based on reviews about 7-8 years ago while being in the process of rearranging my HiFi. Never got satisfied, even when upgrading from Linfo 1 / Itokk / Adikt to Radikal / Ekos 2/Kandid the music was uninvolved. The source of the problem was revealed when I bought a standard 1990 deck (Ittok/k18mk2) which was way was more musically involving. Replaced the Kahn with new standard steel plate and music was back. The Kahn made my LP12 sound like a Rega3 with superexpensive cartridge. 
It was both set up by a dealer and also experimented with toruque setting. A piece of snake oil in my opinion and in fact I'd rather lave a Linn Basik than any LP12 with Kahn. Karmen is way better than Kahn but I find no reason for spending cash on that.
Same story at a mate.

Upgrading my Radikal is however on the plans for 2022 - but listen first of course but I have no doubt it will be better.
 

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3 hours ago, 13th Duke of Wymbourne said:

Speed accuracy probably is not important.

Interesting statement.  The raison d'être for the new Radical is the improved speed accuracy. We are told this aids in information retrieval - I believe this to be true.

Going back in time the whole argument for the LP12 (or any other turntable for that matter) being the 'most important' part of the chain is that the amplifier and speakers can't hope to reproduce what they don't get in the first place.

The pursuit of speed perfection in a turntable is laudable but ultimately limited in what it can achieve as I imagine that the latest LP12 is rotating some orders of magnitude more accurately than the master cutting disc ever will.

Regards

Richard

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Super Wammer
3 hours ago, linesrg said:

The pursuit of speed perfection in a turntable is laudable but ultimately limited in what it can achieve as I imagine that the latest LP12 is rotating some orders of magnitude more accurately than the master cutting disc ever will.

Not to mention the likelihood of getting an LP with the hole in the middle!  

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"Speed accuracy probably is not important."

I doubt that a little. Certainly the smallest possible fluctuations in synchronization are more important than an exact speed of 33 1/3 rpm. Thus, it is a characteristic of the Radikal that it adjusts very slowly in case of deviations from the set speed to get back to the set speed.

But the RIAA equalization is frequency dependent. If the turntable turns too fast, a high tone is lowered too strongly in its level and a low tone is raised too weakly. These may be very small effects, but with the now very sophisticated record players that we have, this effect is becoming more and more important to pay attention to.
Perfect RIAA equalization is of “nothing” if the set speed is not correct.

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Super Wammer

Better speed accuracy provides for better speed stability.

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4 minutes ago, akamatsu said:

Better speed accuracy provides for better speed stability.

Interesting, I hadn’t thought about it

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