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New speaker opinions pls.


The Abbot
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4 hours ago, tuga said:

Spendor used a few of the same Scan Speak tweeters that ProAc had in their speakers, and they also stamped their name on the faceplate. I don’t see a problem with that, it’s a way to have your name visible when the grills are removed.

Hi tuga, i understand why they did it, but i find it lazy. Nice proac badge eon he grill, so another on the veneer easy. If you put it on the driver, which isnt made by you, i think its slightly disingenuous. Now that, as a customer, (i mean im not cos they were usedso effectively ihave no say whatsoever on this!) would irritate me.
 

And if id just spent £2k i dontwant to be reminded, by a word too close to 'spender', by a quickly stamped name on a tweeter if i open one up & find a different mfr nameon the back, with number on it i look up costing £27.50 on ebay.

Naim wouldn't do that, even if their speakers are generally peculiarly bad compared to all their other products.

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4 hours ago, The Abbot said:

Hi tuga, i understand why they did it, but i find it lazy. Nice proac badge eon he grill, so another on the veneer easy. If you put it on the driver, which isnt made by you, i think its slightly disingenuous. Now that, as a customer, (i mean im not cos they were usedso effectively ihave no say whatsoever on this!) would irritate me.
 

And if id just spent £2k i dontwant to be reminded, by a word too close to 'spender', by a quickly stamped name on a tweeter if i open one up & find a different mfr nameon the back, with number on it i look up costing £27.50 on ebay.

Naim wouldn't do that, even if their speakers are generally peculiarly bad compared to all their other products.

Many audiophiles won’t know or care to know which speaker manufacturers make their own drivers in house. It is not a warranty of better performance either and some of the best and/or most well regarded speakers use OEM drivers.

I understand your point about it being misleading but if you are interested in the drivers then getting hold of the information is very easy.

 I would never dismiss a manufacturer because it rebrands OEM drivers

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4 hours ago, The Abbot said:

Naim wouldn't do that, even if their speakers are generally peculiarly bad compared to all their other products.

Not only that but they are a lot more misleading with all their marketing bs

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5 hours ago, The Abbot said:

Hi tuga, i understand why they did it, but i find it lazy. Nice proac badge eon he grill, so another on the veneer easy. If you put it on the driver, which isnt made by you, i think its slightly disingenuous. Now that, as a customer, (i mean im not cos they were usedso effectively ihave no say whatsoever on this!) would irritate me.
 

And if id just spent £2k i dontwant to be reminded, by a word too close to 'spender', by a quickly stamped name on a tweeter if i open one up & find a different mfr nameon the back, with number on it i look up costing £27.50 on ebay

It is a little bit but lots of products are rebranded it's the way the world works. Its sometimes just not possible to make everything in house so they source 'better than' components than if they were to do it themselves and produce a better product. Both companies win that way. They are not breaking any copyright they have a deal with the suppliers. They might even be to a proac supply specification but it's still the same speaker. They may even do the branding for proac. ProAc look good we don't want branding on veneers, if anything no branding at all is good and proac aren't far off that, they are pretty minimalistic.

5 hours ago, The Abbot said:

Naim wouldn't do that, even if their speakers are generally peculiarly bad compared to all their other products

They do it. Lots of old Naim speakers use scanspeak drivers. Many companies all do it. PMC use SEAs but the deeper you dig the more you'll find. There's not many who make all in house, ATC, B&W perhaps but there'll be something they buy in, may be not drive units but something. It's just business. 

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1 hour ago, eddie-baby said:

It is a little bit but lots of products are rebranded it's the way the world works. Its sometimes just not possible to make everything in house so they source 'better than' components than if they were to do it themselves and produce a better product. Both companies win that way. They are not breaking any copyright they have a deal with the suppliers. They might even be to a proac supply specification but it's still the same speaker. They may even do the branding for proac. ProAc look good we don't want branding on veneers, if anything no branding at all is good and proac aren't far off that, they are pretty minimalistic.

They do it. Lots of old Naim speakers use scanspeak drivers. Many companies all do it. PMC use SEAs but the deeper you dig the more you'll find. There's not many who make all in house, ATC, B&W perhaps but there'll be something they buy in, may be not drive units but something. It's just business. 

No I mean naim don't put naim on other mfr's drivers. Yes they use scanspeaks, I know this, but I wasnt commenting purely on spender using seas drivers.. just rebadging them as spender.

Anyway, once I put my new tweets in, I might be persuaded then to spray "Abbot / FatM" on them, as we will have created a new incredibly unique spkr. I'm toying with the idea, have my stencil set somewhere.

Thanks. Ab

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On 09/11/2021 at 20:54, eddie-baby said:

Looks like a nice tweeter that actually. I'm a sucker for a horn loaded speaker. It's not much of a horn, but its horn none the less. 

It's more of a waveguide. :P

http://www.gedlee.com/downloads/AT/Chapter_6.pdf

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1 hour ago, tuga said:

Oh my, what a document. Can you condense it down to perhaps a sentence please?

If you meant the Monacor I would at a glance say it was a waveguide, which is kind of another name for a horn anyway :) But they actually label it as a horn tweeter, so tell them.

Edited by eddie-baby
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10 minutes ago, eddie-baby said:

Oh my, what a document. Can you condense it down to perhaps a sentence please?

If you meant the Monacor I would at a glance say it was a waveguide, which is kind of another name for a horn anyway :) But they actually label it as a horn tweeter, so tell them.

All horns are waveguides but not all waveguides are horns.

6.2 Waveguide Theory3

As we discussed above, the early use of a horn was substantially different than what we are attempting to develop here. The early need for horns was as an acoustic loading devices and our interest here is in controlling source directivity. (Loading essentially became a non-issue with the almost unlimited amplifier power capability available today.) For this reason, we will adapt the terminology that a horn is a device which was developed with Webster’s Equation and its approach to calculation (wherein, only the average wavefront shape and the acoustic loading is required) and a waveguide is a device whose principal use is to control the directivity. A waveguides design is along the lines that we will develop in the following sections, a horns design using Webster’s equation. The acoustic loading of a waveguide can usually be calculated without much trouble, but not always. However, since loading is not a central concern for us this limitation is not significant.

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1 hour ago, tuga said:

Monacor don't actually call it a horn. But it was mentioned as one here, and it is kind of horn loaded I suppose.  

https://www.monacor.com/products/components/speaker-technology/hi-fi-tweeters-/dt-25n/

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What's basically the deal with horn tweeters? Are they me mechanically different to usual monkeys? Or is it simply they are inset, with a curved 'sink hole' thingamajig?

Is it maybe simply to do with dispersion I wonder.

Thanks, Abbot

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2 hours ago, The Abbot said:

What's basically the deal with horn tweeters? Are they me mechanically different to usual monkeys? Or is it simply they are inset, with a curved 'sink hole' thingamajig?

Is it maybe simply to do with dispersion I wonder.

Thanks, Abbot

Waveguides in tweeters help to control directivity by narrowing dispersion at bottom of the passband and in that way making the transition to the midrange smoother, which is worse in 2-way speakers with large mid-woofers and small tweeters (see below), and they may also help to widen the directivity in the mid treble. Horns add gain.

417DC20fig5.jpg

Q Acoustics Concept 300 - waveguided, 1.1'' tweeter, 6.5'' woofer

https://www.stereophile.com/content/q-acoustics-concept-300-loudspeaker-measurements

.

318harbeth.H302fig4.jpg

Harbeth Monitor 30.2 - no waveguide, 1" tweeter, 7.9" woofer

https://www.stereophile.com/content/harbeth-monitor-302-40th-anniversary-edition-loudspeaker-measurements

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6 hours ago, The Abbot said:

What's basically the deal with horn tweeters? Are they me mechanically different to usual monkeys? Or is it simply they are inset, with a curved 'sink hole' thingamajig?

Is it maybe simply to do with dispersion I wonder.

Thanks, Abbot

The Monacor DT-25N is just a normal tweeter. Is it in a horn or waveguide? The shape of it looks more like a very short horn, than a waveguide, but I suppose that depends on who you ask. I once built a 2-way passive speaker with the 18Sound XT1086 horn/compression driver and a 10" pro audio woofer. The dynamics were great, and it was very smooth to the ear (not at all harsh like you'd expect from a titanium CD), but I prefer smaller waveguides or just normal tweeters. There was something about the sound (possibly the dispersion) that just wasn't as good as a soft dome tweeter.

As you say, the short horn or waveguide does help with dispersion, and it adds a bit of gain. If you removed the horn/waveguide and replaced with a flat faceplate it would lose some output. It also has the advantage of bringing the relative acoustic centres a bit closer together, and that helps with crossover design.

The other thing I like is the frequency response is less affected by baffle diffraction. A normal tweeter could have a perfectly flat frequency, but once you mount it on a baffle, it ends up a bit wonky. That's why companies like ProAc used to put the tweeter to one side - it just helps smooth out the diffraction a bit, but a horn or waveguide works better.

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Super Wammer
On 12/10/2021 at 15:19, Beobloke said:


Don’t worry about the impedance value too much. Most conventional modern speakers are somewhere between 4 and 8 Ohms and most conventional amplifiers will happily drive them. It becomes far more crucial if you’re trying to drive Apogees (which can go down to 1 Ohm) with a flea-powered SET valve amplifier but, let’s face it, no-one in their right mind would do that! wink.png

Equally, some manufacturers are somewhat disingenuous when it comes to specifications, describing speakers as ‘8 Ohms’ when they may dip down to 3.5 at certain frequencies, so many assumptions you make from the number could be a bit wide of the mark. Unless you can see an actual impedance graph and know how to interpret it, then don’t worry too much as a single number is largely meaningless.

Sensitivity is more important as this will tell you how loud the speakers will go for a given amount of power and this can give you a basic idea of what will work for you.

For example, 85dB efficient speakers on the end of a 30W amplifier might leave you a bit underwhelmed if you’re a Slipknot fan but, equally a 500W MOSFET behemoth driving 99dB efficient speakers is a bit overkill if you only listen to Patagonian nose flute music at very low levels.

Just to throw a spanner into this, my leak stereo 20 drove quad 63s very well, I sold it this month , the buyer is also using it to drive quad 63s, and is loving it

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11 hours ago, Fatmarley said:

I once built a 2-way passive speaker with the 18Sound XT1086 horn/compression driver and a 10" pro audio woofer. The dynamics were great, and it was very smooth to the ear (not at all harsh like you'd expect from a titanium CD), but I prefer smaller waveguides or just normal tweeters. There was something about the sound (possibly the dispersion) that just wasn't as good as a soft dome tweeter.

According to the site, the XT1068 has a horizontal coverage of 80°. Narrow directivity speakers are not what most people prefer as they increase the direct-to-reflected sound ratio and reduce some of the soundstage effect (width, envelopment).

I think I would have like those speakers of yours...

11 hours ago, Fatmarley said:

As you say, the short horn or waveguide does help with dispersion, and it adds a bit of gain. If you removed the horn/waveguide and replaced with a flat faceplate it would lose some output. It also has the advantage of bringing the relative acoustic centres a bit closer together, and that helps with crossover design.

This is very much dependent on the design of the waveguide. This Scan Speak model has a huge diametre and will in fact increase the centre-to-centre distance:

cinetor_evo_1200-800x535.jpg

https://heissmann-acoustics.de/en/cinetor-evo/

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11 hours ago, Fatmarley said:

The other thing I like is the frequency response is less affected by baffle diffraction. A normal tweeter could have a perfectly flat frequency, but once you mount it on a baffle, it ends up a bit wonky. That's why companies like ProAc used to put the tweeter to one side - it just helps smooth out the diffraction a bit, but a horn or waveguide works better.

ProAc's approach is only a patch on the issue but not a solution (and perhaps why hardly any other manufacturer uses the vertically misaligned mid-woofer/tweeter topology). From what I gather it is best to address baffle diffraction by improving the baffle design. Heissmann talks about that in detail here:

https://heissmann-acoustics.de/en/kantendiffraktion-sekundaerschallquellen-treiberanordnun/

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