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I wish I had this bloke's hi-fi budget...


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38 minutes ago, hearingisbelieving said:

In reply to the OP... I like the guy. He doesn't come across as a snob - never mentioned the cost of anything in his system once, he likes music and goes to concerts and just wants to replicate that experience in his home.

He admits to mistake he has made in the past and shares them to help others avoid making the same mistakes. He seems to know more than a few details about each bit of his kit and has a decent explanation for why he bought the kit he did ie he had a plan. so he isn't just handing over wads of cash to dealer and saying "im rich, give me the most expensive stuff you've got so I can brag about it to my mates"!

Like others, I think money could be wisely invested in room treatment but maybe it has already been. If I was spending at that level I would also consider power regeneration but again maybe he has this but its not mentioned.

I'm also skeptical about the subs - the need for them in the first place given the massive speakers and his room is large but not a concert hall, and also their integration. Who's to say for sure though that he isn't right?

Apparently, judging by Terry's comments, there has been no room treatment.

Is the music played representative of the concerts he goes to? 

Edited by StingRay
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Super Wammer
2 hours ago, StingRay said:

Apparently, judging by Terry's comments, there has been no room treatment.

Is the music played representative of the concerts he goes to? 

Apart from the likes of the Albert Hall etc how many venues to you go to for gigs that have obvious acoustic ‘treatments’ applied to them.  I recall when GMex was the main venue in Manchester - the old Central Railway Station.  As a concert venue it was ok ….but had the acoustic signature of A Railway Staton - quelle surprise.  
The Manchester Arena is just that an are and built for multiple uses not just concerts but I’ve hockey, cat shows etc so again will never have perfect acoustics  - so for a concert there is a heavy reliance on dsp, but how do you set that up before hand on a sound check when later 8000 sit down/stand up etc and screw up your setup.  We still go to listen to our chosen groups tho and never really complain about the acoustic quality …..because we are there for the entertainment and MUSIC ….not a perceived hifi experience.

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56 minutes ago, MF 1000 said:

Apart from the likes of the Albert Hall etc how many venues to you go to for gigs that have obvious acoustic ‘treatments’ applied to them.  I recall when GMex was the main venue in Manchester - the old Central Railway Station.  As a concert venue it was ok ….but had the acoustic signature of A Railway Staton - quelle surprise.  
The Manchester Arena is just that an are and built for multiple uses not just concerts but I’ve hockey, cat shows etc so again will never have perfect acoustics  - so for a concert there is a heavy reliance on dsp, but how do you set that up before hand on a sound check when later 8000 sit down/stand up etc and screw up your setup.  We still go to listen to our chosen groups tho and never really complain about the acoustic quality …..because we are there for the entertainment and MUSIC ….not a perceived hifi experience.

My comment about room treatment was about his room, nothing to do with live music.

I wonder what sort of concerts he goes to, as the music he played was lounge jazz. 

Not very challenging but typical for these type of demos.

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43 minutes ago, StingRay said:

My comment about room treatment was about his room, nothing to do with live music.

I wonder what sort of concerts he goes to, as the music he played was lounge jazz. 

Not very challenging but typical for these type of demos.

Yes but he was playing a demo disc I believe. So not necessarily representative of everything he listens to...

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The last concert I went to was in our local ice arena, basically a huge metal shed, and the sound was ruined by the echo.  Maybe that’s what he’s trying to recreate?  I just don’t see the point of spending that much, and then putting it in that room.

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On 21/10/2021 at 17:30, MF 1000 said:

Apart from the likes of the Albert Hall etc how many venues to you go to for gigs that have obvious acoustic ‘treatments’ applied to them.  I recall when GMex was the main venue in Manchester - the old Central Railway Station.  As a concert venue it was ok ….but had the acoustic signature of A Railway Staton - quelle surprise.  
The Manchester Arena is just that an are and built for multiple uses not just concerts but I’ve hockey, cat shows etc so again will never have perfect acoustics  - so for a concert there is a heavy reliance on dsp, but how do you set that up before hand on a sound check when later 8000 sit down/stand up etc and screw up your setup.  We still go to listen to our chosen groups tho and never really complain about the acoustic quality …..because we are there for the entertainment and MUSIC ….not a perceived hifi experience.

Setting up for concerts is educated guess work, not just the sound absorption of loads of bodies, but temperature gradients they produce causes havoc on sound reproduction.

There are loads of software solutions out there, particularly when line arrays are involved, but the mixing engineer is working overtime for the first half hour of any show dialling the sound in. We have show files of all our past concerts which allow us to have an idea of any problem areas and we know what the kit we are using so hopefully the customer gets a decent result. 

Some venues are much harder than other to work with and churches in general are much better sounding than more modern venues.

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  • Tony_J changed the title to I wish I had this bloke's hi-fi budget...

The guy clearly loves music and is trying to get the system sounding as good as possible. I’d be keen to drop by for a listen. However, I’m not sure that the 5-box Esoteric disc player is the best allocation of funds when the room still seems too lively judging from the echo of the conversation.

Being slightly flippant (but only slightly!) I’d bet he could get a better result with a £50 Sony CD player from eBay but with serious attention paid to the room acoustics eg. hire an acoustic consultant to sort it professionally. Once the room is at its best, then perhaps the Esoteric player would be worth considering within the context of the rest of the system spend.

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On 21/10/2021 at 15:13, StingRay said:

Apparently, judging by Terry's comments, there has been no room treatment.

Is the music played representative of the concerts he goes to? 

Perhaps he was there to use Dirac Live on the system and room. That should sort out/compensate for a few issues.

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On 22/10/2021 at 23:29, moo-fi said:

Setting up for concerts is educated guess work, not just the sound absorption of loads of bodies, but temperature gradients they produce causes havoc on sound reproduction.

There are loads of software solutions out there, particularly when line arrays are involved, but the mixing engineer is working overtime for the first half hour of any show dialling the sound in. We have show files of all our past concerts which allow us to have an idea of any problem areas and we know what the kit we are using so hopefully the customer gets a decent result. 

Some venues are much harder than other to work with and churches in general are much better sounding than more modern venues.

The worst outdoor sound I've ever heard was at the annual fireworks festival at my local park. It ran for a few years with the CBSO there but the whole effect was ruined by loud echoes from the huge firework display.

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20 minutes ago, TIU said:

Perhaps he was there to use Dirac Live on the system and room. That should sort out/compensate for a few issues.

It’s possible but I did not see it mentioned. But it won’t sort out all the problems and with his budget I would have got the room sorted out first. Probably would only cost a few thousand £s. 

Dirac would be good for integrating the subs.

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2 hours ago, TIU said:

Perhaps he was there to use Dirac Live on the system and room. That should sort out/compensate for a few issues.

Dirac Live can't specifically target issues associated with long reverberation times, which from the comments above sound like the key issue (I've not watched the video). 

What DL can do is reduce the amplitude of peaks in the in-room frequency response. Doing so will then reduce the time it takes signal at these frequencies to decay to a certain level relative to the rest of the music, purely by virtue of starting at a lower level. As in, even with the same rate of decay, a signal can drop to an SPL of 40 dB quicker if it starts at 80 dB than 95 dB. The actual rate of decay is unchanged though.

In the bass region there are typically amplitude response peaks that DL can manage well, and this does give a decay-time type of benefit at the frequencies of these peaks. This addresses what I think is usually the most annoying/distracting of issues wth boomy/'one-note' bass. If decay time reduction is wanted more broadly, and particulary at higher frequencies where DL makes much more minor adjustments, then adding acousic absortion is the only answer (which can include everyday objects).

If a consequence of little absorption is that the overall sound is 'bright' then DL can help with this though.

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2 hours ago, StingRay said:

Dirac would be good for integrating the subs.

How much depends on the version of Dirac Live. The standard stereo version does nothing in terms of time/phase integration, but will allow the combined amplitude response of the subs and main speakers to be assessed and adjusted to taste. I beleive Dirac Live Bass Management can go further but I think this is only available for multi-channel AV applications currently.

Edited by MartinC
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8 hours ago, MartinC said:

Dirac Live can't specifically target issues associated with long reverberation times, which from the comments above sound like the key issue (I've not watched the video). 

What DL can do is reduce the amplitude of peaks in the in-room frequency response. Doing so will then reduce the time it takes signal at these frequencies to decay to a certain level relative to the rest of the music, purely by virtue of starting at a lower level. As in, even with the same rate of decay, a signal can drop to an SPL of 40 dB quicker if it starts at 80 dB than 95 dB. The actual rate of decay is unchanged though.

In the bass region there are typically amplitude response peaks that DL can manage well, and this does give a decay-time type of benefit at the frequencies of these peaks. This addresses what I think is usually the most annoying/distracting of issues wth boomy/'one-note' bass. If decay time reduction is wanted more broadly, and particulary at higher frequencies where DL makes much more minor adjustments, then adding acousic absortion is the only answer (which can include everyday objects).

If a consequence of little absorption is that the overall sound is 'bright' then DL can help with this though.

^I did my best to try to explain the above in words, but if anyone is interested in a practical demonstration of what was trying to describe I have just posted the following in the Tech Corner section of the forum:

Edited by MartinC
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On 20/10/2021 at 10:57, savvypaul said:

I drive a 16 years old Volvo estate.

I dream of a slightly newer Volvo estate.

Not even Volvo would have thought anyone dreamed of owning one. 🤣

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