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Space v1 and Subs


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I have a rather unusual system (I believe), so the following may only be useful to a small number of Linn DSM users, but thought it still worth sharing.

I have an Akurate DSM3 feeding a pair of active main speakers (Hedd Type 05 mk2), as well as a small, quality sub (JL Audio D108). The sub and main are high pass filtered by an active crossover (Behringer) at a frequency of 80hz (this crossover can be easily changed using simple dials).

Having used Space V2 for some time now, I had noticed that the sub volume had been turned down several times to avoid an annoying boom (presumably around the 31hz, 52hz and 60hz frequencies identified in Konfig). I appreciate that Space V2 is considered to be better than V1 for all kinds of reasons but in my case, no matter how much I played with settings, the sub wasn’t sounding at its best.

I then realised that the Space settings were only affecting the frequencies used by the sub, and decided to revert to V1 but with much more drastic cuts to the gain settings at the problem frequencies. In order to do this, I had to zero the 3 calculated room nodes and create 3 customised ones.

The result; a sub that’s now working at a proper volume but without the dreaded sub boom that always sounds bad (to me, anyway) and a mix that was impossible to achieve using Space V2.

Note - The settings were all arrived at by listening and without the use of a microphone (something that I have so far resisted, but may be tempted to use at some point in the future).

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3 hours ago, Pedro2 said:

I have a rather unusual system (I believe), so the following may only be useful to a small number of Linn DSM users, but thought it still worth sharing.

I have an Akurate DSM3 feeding a pair of active main speakers (Hedd Type 05 mk2), as well as a small, quality sub (JL Audio D108). The sub and main are high pass filtered by an active crossover (Behringer) at a frequency of 80hz (this crossover can be easily changed using simple dials).

Having used Space V2 for some time now, I had noticed that the sub volume had been turned down several times to avoid an annoying boom (presumably around the 31hz, 52hz and 60hz frequencies identified in Konfig). I appreciate that Space V2 is considered to be better than V1 for all kinds of reasons but in my case, no matter how much I played with settings, the sub wasn’t sounding at its best.

I then realised that the Space settings were only affecting the frequencies used by the sub, and decided to revert to V1 but with much more drastic cuts to the gain settings at the problem frequencies. In order to do this, I had to zero the 3 calculated room nodes and create 3 customised ones.

The result; a sub that’s now working at a proper volume but without the dreaded sub boom that always sounds bad (to me, anyway) and a mix that was impossible to achieve using Space V2.

Note - The settings were all arrived at by listening and without the use of a microphone (something that I have so far resisted, but may be tempted to use at some point in the future).

Good job!!!

You may get further benefits by adjusting the individual frequencies of each calculated room mode up or down by 1 or 2 Hz to further fine tune.

I also found it helpful to narrow the bandwidth of the calculated room modes.

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14 hours ago, Paulssurround said:

Good job!!!

You may get further benefits by adjusting the individual frequencies of each calculated room mode up or down by 1 or 2 Hz to further fine tune.

I also found it helpful to narrow the bandwidth of the calculated room modes.

Thanks for the advice. I’ll be playing with v1 settings more over the coming weeks, but the initial results are quite startling.

I also tried using v2 with the preference slider set to 0%, but the sub (at reasonable gain setting) just boomed. 

My problem with the ADSM is the lack of control options for a dedicated sub. I know that this is unlikely to be on Linn’s radar, and to be honest, doesn’t feature on most streamer/dac/pre amps, but the ability to split the signal going to main speakers and sub is a must for proper sub integration.

As I use an active crossover unit between the Linn and the sub and speakers, I can basically dedicate Space settings to controlling the sub. As an alternative, I would need to use more digital filtering; I’m not sure how well this would sit in partnership with the Akurate, though. 

I imagine that many reading this, who don’t own or don’t want to own a sub might be thinking, subs are just too much hassle and don’t belong in quality 2 channel music systems. I do sympathise, but still wouldn’t part with mine. The overall sound quality, and especially that luscious bass, is just too good to miss out on.

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Have you tried an exakt sub box which does separate the signal 

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19 minutes ago, Coalboy68 said:

Have you tried an exakt sub box which does separate the signal 

I have used an Exaktbox sub, and it made my setup remarkably simple and well balanced. I haven't tried fiddling with the sliders, or found the perfect roll on, OR toe on the sub itself. But I'm very happy with where I presently have with no booming. The OP isn't going down the Exakt path I suspect.

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5 hours ago, Coalboy68 said:

Have you tried an exakt sub box which does separate the signal 

Hi. Thanks for the suggestion. No, not tried one; only vaguely aware of them, to be honest. It appears to fit the bill perfectly as regards splitting the frequencies between subs and main. It also allows for other settings such as rolI off etc. I presume that the output from the exakt box to the sub would be an analogue signal via its XLR output?

My only issue would be one of cost - I'm presently using an active crossover that comes in at under £100 and the Exakt Sub box retails at over ten times the price. I'd be loath to buy one without a comparison with what I've already got as the box would be more expensive than my sub (£800).

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They are good. They have RCA and XLR yes 2nd hand around 750 to 800 when they come up

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But, correct me if I'm wrong, but putting one element in the Exakt domain, the sub, will cause timing issues? The OP's setup is all non Exakt? It's my understanding that Exakt adds 60ish milliseconds delay for processing. I don't know if this, given bass is the slowest wavelength, could be tinkered away with a phase correction, but I doubt it. 

The OP has indicated budgetary constraints, and has active speakers, so Exakt seems a bridge entirely too far. Especially to just get a sub to work. So perhaps he can dive deep into uMic, REW, and miniDSP and report back?

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7 hours ago, Pedro2 said:

Thanks for the advice. I’ll be playing with v1 settings more over the coming weeks, but the initial results are quite startling.

I also tried using v2 with the preference slider set to 0%, but the sub (at reasonable gain setting) just boomed. 

My problem with the ADSM is the lack of control options for a dedicated sub. I know that this is unlikely to be on Linn’s radar, and to be honest, doesn’t feature on most streamer/dac/pre amps, but the ability to split the signal going to main speakers and sub is a must for proper sub integration.

As I use an active crossover unit between the Linn and the sub and speakers, I can basically dedicate Space settings to controlling the sub. As an alternative, I would need to use more digital filtering; I’m not sure how well this would sit in partnership with the Akurate, though. 

I imagine that many reading this, who don’t own or don’t want to own a sub might be thinking, subs are just too much hassle and don’t belong in quality 2 channel music systems. I do sympathise, but still wouldn’t part with mine. The overall sound quality, and especially that luscious bass, is just too good to miss out on.

I wrote this thread on Space Optimisation Version 1 that you may find useful, with the link below

‘I have tried this out, using all 4 custom filters, and it has worked well for many people. It would be worth giving it a try

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47 minutes ago, Jail4CEOs2 said:

But, correct me if I'm wrong, but putting one element in the Exakt domain, the sub, will cause timing issues? The OP's setup is all non Exakt? It's my understanding that Exakt adds 60ish milliseconds delay for processing. I don't know if this, given bass is the slowest wavelength, could be tinkered away with a phase correction, but I doubt it. 

The OP has indicated budgetary constraints, and has active speakers, so Exakt seems a bridge entirely too far. Especially to just get a sub to work. So perhaps he can dive deep into uMic, REW, and miniDSP and report back?

You can adjust delay to balance the speakers in a DSM for just this reason exakt vs non exakt. 🙂

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Adjust it where, in the DSM?

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16 hours ago, Paulssurround said:

I wrote this thread on Space Optimisation Version 1 that you may find useful, with the link below

‘I have tried this out, using all 4 custom filters, and it has worked well for many people. It would be worth giving it a try

Great. Thanks Paul. I’ll give it a go when I get some time. I remember using some of your Space v1 advice a few years back, but it was with a previous, passive system. At that time, I could never really hit the sweet spot with v1 and often found myself turning Space off completely. V2 seemed much better, as everyone appears to agree on.

V1 with active main speakers and active sub, however, appears to offer much more flexibility, especially with the sub. The frequencies affected (below 70hz) all relate to the sub rather than the mains (I tend to use a crossover of 80hz, although I have the flexibility to go lower or higher). I have avoided serious room measurements (microphone, REW etc) so far but might be tempted at some point.

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15 hours ago, Coalboy68 said:

You can adjust delay to balance the speakers in a DSM for just this reason exakt vs non exakt. 🙂

I currently have no facility to affect delay settings, so presumably, this becomes possible within Konfig if you use a sub box?
I did, however, contemplate swapping my sub for a Hedd sub, as the latter allows for time delays - it would connect directly with my Hedd mains (a rather smart development from this pro speaker manufacturer).

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