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3 hours ago, JohnG said:

There is information coming through about the Mogami 3082 Speaker Cables. I was not in the room to do my own evaluation, but the individuals who are offering feedback, are more than able to offer a decent assessment, and each one voiced, usually is not too far off anothers.

To put the audition into context, the day centred around a evaluation of Pre Amps, with a few other devices included at the latter part of the day.                                                                                                 I know the True Signal Silver's were used as the cable to audition the Townshend Allegri and EAR 864 Pre Amps, I know there was a Tube Rolling on the 864 Pre Amp.                                                      I am not aware at which stage of the event the Mogami was entered for Audition or the Pre Amp it was listened to with. Each Pre Amp has been reported as being very revealing of details.

The description offered so far by two of the attendees follows:                                                               

Commenting on the merits of the Mogami co-axials is slightly difficult for me, as I own the 'competing' True Signal speaker cables. 

With my neutral hat on, I have to be honest and say that they did not assume the mantle of 'giant-killers' for me, lacking particularly in definition and separation against the reference. The bass was 'muddy' to my ears and the lateral sound stage much reduced.They were certainly not as 'open' in the mids but the treble was good. They also lacked the tonal quality / accuracy of the T S cables and that certain 'ambient' characteristic on live tracks like the one we played by Sarah Jarosz. In short, they did not make an 'emotional' connection for me.

 Notwithstanding the above, they were competing with considerably more expensive cables on the day and I certainly believe that they are competitive with other cables in the £100 - £150 range.

John, I think that our view of the Mogami cables was influenced by listening to all the preamps on the ‘True Silvers’, which as we know are top performers. I agree with David’s view. To me they lacked the precision and openness of the True Silvers, but I suspect that when I connect my Chords they may well improve on them. I’ll let you know.

I will copy and paste and further descriptions as they arrive.

From David's description, I have a full understanding of the term 'Muddy Bass', this was the common trait I was picking up on when auditioning the Mapleshades and comparing them to my other cables.                                                                                                                                                        The other cables in the line up, all coloured the bass to different levels, to the point that the Mapleshades made the other cables sound like they were delivering coloured sound or in certain cases distortion.                                                                                                                                                From previous comparisons, it is known and agreed the True Signal Silver and Mapleshades deliver a Clean Sound, with Fast Uncoloured Bass Notes, with a Soundstage that projects out beyond the speakers in all dimensions.                                                                                                      From my recollection the Mapleshades have a little more meat on the bones than the True Signals, so either may just pip the other depending on the system they are used in, but either works very well on ESL's.    

Thank you so much for your update, John. Not a great result so far from the Mogamis, then. Interesting comments surrounding the treble quality from them, though, as this was an area that Sanders stated would benefit from using them. 

I remember only too well the nightmare trying to assess components by ear. I compared interconnects over a period of several months and would finally conclude that I preferred a particular model, only to then change my mind again. 

I would be interested at some point, though John, once you've finished your assessment of the cables,  in taking you up on your general offer of borrowing your Mogamis to try. I would be curious to experiment with dsp via my minidsp 2x4HD just in case the Mogamis are causing a shift in tonal balance compared to the True Signal and Mapleshade cables.

I know just how different (better) my system can sound after merely measuring in-room response and implementing dsp to correct it.

All the best,

Gary.

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Hi Gary                                                                                                                                                                  The offer of the loan still stands.

I'm glad I have been able to offer some support in a query about a cables interface with a system.  I think there are other cables to trial the Mogami's against from a more affordable price range,        I will do this on my system and let the outcome be known.                                                                                                                             

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Super Wammer
4 hours ago, JohnG said:

Hi Gary                                                                                                                                                                  The offer of the loan still stands.

I'm glad I have been able to offer some support in a query about a cables interface with a system.  I think there are other cables to trial the Mogami's against from a more affordable price range,        I will do this on my system and let the outcome be known.                                                                                                                             

Thanks John. Despite being happy with my (£750+ retail) Van Den Hul Revelation cables, I'm still intrigued to hear whether the coaxial speaker cables improve on them. Sanders insisted in his white paper that his coaxial cables are the ideal design for electrostatics and I've read several very positive reviews of all of his products.

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13 hours ago, JohnG said:

There is information coming through about the Mogami 3082 Speaker Cables. I was not in the room to do my own evaluation, but the individuals who are offering feedback, are more than able to offer a decent assessment, and each one voiced, usually is not too far off anothers.

To put the audition into context, the day centred around a evaluation of Pre Amps, with a few other devices included at the latter part of the day.                                                                                                 I know the True Signal Silver's were used as the cable to audition the Townshend Allegri and EAR 864 Pre Amps, I know there was a Tube Rolling on the 864 Pre Amp.                                                      I am not aware at which stage of the event the Mogami was entered for Audition or the Pre Amp it was listened to with. Each Pre Amp has been reported as being very revealing of details.

The description offered so far by two of the attendees follows:                                                               

Commenting on the merits of the Mogami co-axials is slightly difficult for me, as I own the 'competing' True Signal speaker cables. 

With my neutral hat on, I have to be honest and say that they did not assume the mantle of 'giant-killers' for me, lacking particularly in definition and separation against the reference. The bass was 'muddy' to my ears and the lateral sound stage much reduced.They were certainly not as 'open' in the mids but the treble was good. They also lacked the tonal quality / accuracy of the T S cables and that certain 'ambient' characteristic on live tracks like the one we played by Sarah Jarosz. In short, they did not make an 'emotional' connection for me.

 Notwithstanding the above, they were competing with considerably more expensive cables on the day and I certainly believe that they are competitive with other cables in the £100 - £150 range.

John, I think that our view of the Mogami cables was influenced by listening to all the preamps on the ‘True Silvers’, which as we know are top performers. I agree with David’s view. To me they lacked the precision and openness of the True Silvers, but I suspect that when I connect my Chords they may well improve on them. I’ll let you know.

I will copy and paste and further descriptions as they arrive.

From David's description, I have a full understanding of the term 'Muddy Bass', this was the common trait I was picking up on when auditioning the Mapleshades and comparing them to my other cables.                                                                                                                                                        The other cables in the line up, all coloured the bass to different levels, to the point that the Mapleshades made the other cables sound like they were delivering coloured sound or in certain cases distortion.                                                                                                                                                From previous comparisons, it is known and agreed the True Signal Silver and Mapleshades deliver a Clean Sound, with Fast Uncoloured Bass Notes, with a Soundstage that projects out beyond the speakers in all dimensions.                                                                                                      From my recollection the Mapleshades have a little more meat on the bones than the True Signals, so either may just pip the other depending on the system they are used in, but either works very well on ESL's.    

Thank you for the detailed comparisons between the 3 cables which your group listened to and for some hours it would seem.  I read Sanders report and it did make sense to have a coaxial type cable for electrostatics and  I suspect that speaker cables are mainly designed to be used with the different electrical characteristics of  electrodynamic (cone) speakers which are probably more than 95% of the hifi market.  However, as you said they are quite a bit less expensive than the True Silver and Mapleshades cables.  I'll certainly consider them for a future upgrade especially as they seem to have a treble quality similar to the others but they are in my sort of price bracket (£100-£200)

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Hi Aggers                                                                                                                                                                               Ibought the cables for trial porposes.

As a result, the cables will be available for the offer of a loan, so if you can wait a little longer, I can post them out between Gary and Yourself to assess in your system. 

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2 hours ago, JohnG said:

Hi Aggers                                                                                                                                                                               Ibought the cables for trial porposes.

As a result, the cables will be available for the offer of a loan, so if you can wait a little longer, I can post them out between Gary and Yourself to assess in your system. 

2 hours ago, JohnG said:

Hi Aggers                                                                                                                                                                               Ibought the cables for trial porposes.

As a result, the cables will be available for the offer of a loan, so if you can wait a little longer, I can post them out between Gary and Yourself to assess in your system. 

Hi John,

That's very kind and helpful to loan me the cables when Gary has assessed them- I'm not in a massive hurry at all.  I'll PM to you my address.  Thanks Ian

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On 27/04/2019 at 06:27, JohnG said:

There is information coming through about the Mogami 3082 Speaker Cables. I was not in the room to do my own evaluation, but the individuals who are offering feedback, are more than able to offer a decent assessment, and each one voiced, usually is not too far off anothers.

To put the audition into context, the day centred around a evaluation of Pre Amps, with a few other devices included at the latter part of the day.                                                                                                 I know the True Signal Silver's were used as the cable to audition the Townshend Allegri and EAR 864 Pre Amps, I know there was a Tube Rolling on the 864 Pre Amp.                                                      I am not aware at which stage of the event the Mogami was entered for Audition or the Pre Amp it was listened to with. Each Pre Amp has been reported as being very revealing of details.

The description offered so far by two of the attendees follows:                                                               

Commenting on the merits of the Mogami co-axials is slightly difficult for me, as I own the 'competing' True Signal speaker cables. 

With my neutral hat on, I have to be honest and say that they did not assume the mantle of 'giant-killers' for me, lacking particularly in definition and separation against the reference. The bass was 'muddy' to my ears and the lateral sound stage much reduced.They were certainly not as 'open' in the mids but the treble was good. They also lacked the tonal quality / accuracy of the T S cables and that certain 'ambient' characteristic on live tracks like the one we played by Sarah Jarosz. In short, they did not make an 'emotional' connection for me.

 Notwithstanding the above, they were competing with considerably more expensive cables on the day and I certainly believe that they are competitive with other cables in the £100 - £150 range.

John, I think that our view of the Mogami cables was influenced by listening to all the preamps on the ‘True Silvers’, which as we know are top performers. I agree with David’s view. To me they lacked the precision and openness of the True Silvers, but I suspect that when I connect my Chords they may well improve on them. I’ll let you know.

I will copy and paste and further descriptions as they arrive.

From David's description, I have a full understanding of the term 'Muddy Bass', this was the common trait I was picking up on when auditioning the Mapleshades and comparing them to my other cables.                                                                                                                                                        The other cables in the line up, all coloured the bass to different levels, to the point that the Mapleshades made the other cables sound like they were delivering coloured sound or in certain cases distortion.                                                                                                                                                From previous comparisons, it is known and agreed the True Signal Silver and Mapleshades deliver a Clean Sound, with Fast Uncoloured Bass Notes, with a Soundstage that projects out beyond the speakers in all dimensions.                                                                                                      From my recollection the Mapleshades have a little more meat on the bones than the True Signals, so either may just pip the other depending on the system they are used in, but either works very well on ESL's.    

Has anyone tried TV or satelite coax RG8 etc this cable is supposed to be a good match with electrostatics

Thorsten Loesch chief designer at AMR Audio wrote several articles in TNT some years ago about cables

https://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/ubyte2e.html

http://www.geocities.ws/jonrisch/s1.htm

http://www.geocities.ws/jonrisch/spkrcbl1.htm http://www.geocities.ws/jonrisch/page3.htm

http://www.audiofil.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4589&title=zvuniki-kablovi-i-izrada

http://pebandili.ml/low-inductance-cable.html

Edited by Eaton Mess

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I remember in the 1970s when my Dad's ESL57s were in the family house, he used TV coax cable. No idea how they compare to normal figure-8 cables, but was curious as to why he did so.

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Super Wammer
1 hour ago, Bodgit said:

I remember in the 1970s when my Dad's ESL57s were in the family house, he used TV coax cable. No idea how they compare to normal figure-8 cables, but was curious as to why he did so.

Interesting...sounds like he possibly knew something that others didn't back then.

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Super Wammer
1 hour ago, Eaton Mess said:

Quad used to produce their own cables below are the details and specifications

July 1993

image.png.9cc55176d9cb76b04414659c556f5f45.png

@JohnG not sure how these compare with the others you have evaluated?

image.thumb.png.93dde1d87648bb0fd5fae3c1eb0998cf.png

image.png.6e61ea7bb19e11c3390c3c4a52985010.png

image.thumb.png.8c67a5fb25773a917733f8c103978990.png

image.thumb.png.368820c5706b2fda74de1f55921b2e0d.png

:nerves:As they don't have any fairy dust in the design, would we have to sprinkle it on ourselves?

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Super Wammer

You know sometimes as people we are either stubborn or plain stupid . Andrew at One Thing Limited who did all the work on my ESL 57's which was great advise me that I really needed and Amp with lots of current to drive them .

I have an original Mk1 Krell KSA50 which I though would be enough . If not then to replace it I need 200 watt plus to make a difference . I thought about this honestly I did and looked around for somehting that would fit the bill .

Sadly then ideas and long held ambitions got in the way as they often do and I have been carried away at a tangent for something I have alwasy wanted to own and with no good scientific reason always felt was something that would work well with the Quads .

Sadly advice from people who know much better than me and the sensible voice in my ear have been ignored . Instead I bought a Croft Series 3 OTL power amplifier to drive my Quad 57 ESL's . So less power (35 Watt per chanel) and OTL with all the possible issues that can have .

Will it work ? No idea but there was nothing in my heart (and even less in brain) that would stop me doing it. This may well turn out to be disaster and leave me red faced and embarassed . Then again it amy well turn the other way and be a match made in heaven . Till I try it I will never know but at least now I know I will get to give it a go . Glenn Croft says it will work very well indeed (well he would say that) but then really surprised me by saying he uses the same combination himself so there is hope for me . Sorry Andrew I seem to have ignored your advice and I know from the work you did that I probably should not .

Mike in Kendal , what do you think ? I kinow your Quads are being pwoered by a much lowere powered amp than the Crofts . Will the Crofts have enough quality will they amke a good match .

Watch this space for further updates. But please be patient as I now have the tricky problem of getting this amp up from the other end of the country to Liverpool to work out. Glad to say due to a current imminent operation and work on gutting my Kitchen I am not in any hurry so it amy be few motnths before I can report back . Any advice , abuse , or even warnings would be appreciated.

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There are many theories that surround this hobby of ours and ESL's seem to attract more than their fair share.

I too was told on this forum that the 18 watt Ming Da 845 valve mono block power amps that I use with my ESL989s were not powerful enough to get the best out of the speakers and that I should buy something with much bigger output. Although I, and many other Wammers,  were more than happy with the sound I was getting from my system I decided to follow the advice and purchased a fairly new pair of SS Quad Elite mono blocks with 150 watts per side for £440, whilst of course keeping the 845's, just in case. 

After a lengthy period of comparison between the two sets of mono's I decided that the Ming Da's were more than capable of bring out all that the 989's had to offer and so sold the Elites on for a profit of £30.

Moving on, two years later, and I have decided that there is more to come from ESL's and am taking delivery of a pair of ESL 2905's tomorrow, the £30 is not helping much with the upgrade!  

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About 10 years ago I talked to Quad about the right size amp for my ESL 63s, at the time I was using a Quad 303. They said that if I used a more powerful amp I may notice a difference on the attacks of notes, the start of the note. I duly upgraded to a quad 520 and it made a difference though I’m not sure it improved things. Now I’ve learned that I prefer the sweet sounding 303 to the 520, though I’m not using either with the quads. 

At at the moment I use an Electrocompaniet ECI - 2 with the ESLs  (they are with Gradients, so I guess that means that the Electrocompaniet has less work to do) The setup sounds very good . . . but not good enough. It has presence, with a big 3D image, but the image isn’t as firm and airy as in the Spendor/Krell system, which captures more of the details of voice and instrument separation and placement.

Like Bencat I have a Mk1 Krell KSA50, which I’ve been assured delivers about 75W per Chanel Class A. This sounds fabulous in a system with Spendor SP 1s, better than the Quad system for imaging. I intend to swap the amps soon (it weighs 30kg, so to lift the Krell around is a pain!),

No preamp in all cases; volume control digital through the Logitech Media Server; Theta and Museatex DAC with Spendors and ESLs respectively, 

Edited by Howard

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