I evolved this system over a few years with help from the horn community here.
It started out as Tannoy GRFs with a horn on top and grew.
http://www.hifiwigwam.com/showthread.php?46846-Getting-the-horn-well-2-to-be-precise&highlight=jbl+2435
Then 4 way
http://www.hifiwigwam.com/showthread.php?53735-Going-4-way-low-mid-mid-horns
Time to start thinking about proper 5 way... and for those who can not wait for the detailed DIY build in the next pages, here they are...
The current incarnation
Original conical setup - Now with Non-smoking man
5 ways - that is:
- Raal's Lazy Ribbon (amorphous) on Tweeter,
- JBL's 2435Be or Vitavox's S2 compression drivers, on upper horns,
- JBL's 2482 or BMS's 4295 Mid compression drivers, on mid horns,
- Eminence's 15" Kappa A, on bass horns,
- Eminence's 15" Kappa Pro LFII on Tapped horns - the cabs in the far corners...
Some more updates.
Here with smooth mouth termination and Raal Lazy ribbon tweeters.
(Steel stands for the mid and upper mid/tweeter now made and allow easy installation & repeatable setup - thinking of Scalford. Left to do; finish them with lacquer etc & decide on a nice looking way of cutting / covering the acoustic damping material)
It meant removing the upper mid horn (smaller conical of the 3) hanger arrangement and coming up with a more flexible clamp arrangement.
Plus of course re-time aligning to get them perfectly in time.
The benefits of this configuration are clear, bringing the upper mid horn detail and immediacy into focus and really showing off it's capabilities.
Note also the extra bracing on the tapped horns - NOT necessary in my room, as they are just ticking over but done for Scalford where they would be driven a lot harder to pressurize a much larger room.
Raal ribbon tweeter waveguides added and also 600z Tractrix upper mid horns... Tractrix here we come! Le Cleach are no doubt nice, but impractical in a normal room functioning horn system, on anything below upper mid frequencies as they are enormous! More details in the most recent pages.
Latest updates: Now with added Tractrix
Next step will be to make some round hyperbolic or tractrix horns for the big mid bass horns...
The conicals will go for firewood.
Here is the set up as it was at the 2012 Scalford show on Sat evening - setup ongoing.
&
Sunday with punters in the room it sounded much better due damping of the bright room.
Now with the Tractrix 200Hz sprayed up to match.
Latest prototyping - smaller Hyperbolic round bass horns. They modelled well in Hornresp and with throat and back box tuning perform better than the big conicals.
Latest is Vitavox S2 compression drivers to replace the trusty JBL2435Be drivers - both are 1.5" throat so same horn can be used.
Now finished the exponential bass horns to match
So what do they sound like?
Well this is the best speaker / amp combo and set up I've ever had. But don't just take my word for it...
A few Wammers have been over for a listen.
Here's what they said:
Coco "I was really looking forward to hearing these as this similar to what I plan to do with my own system.
I certainly wasn't disappointed. They sound absolutely effortless - you get a sense of incredible power, but completely under control. The tapped horn bass is like nothing you've ever heard before. It just pressurises the room and makes it feel like it's not even trying. Like distant thunder!"
and after later listening
"it sounded very good indeed! It has amazing presence and a really effortless presentation. The tube amp has sweetened the upper mid which sounds less grey and more vivid than I previously remember. The slight residual bloom on the upper bass has been eliminated, too. As for the way they pressurise the room at LF... :shock: I imagine they could be used as a weapon/torture device!
Everyone should hear this, time for a bake off?
Edit: Oh and they are f**cking enormous. Nothing prepares you for quite how large they are. Even having seen them several times, they still shock me. The photos just don't capture the sheer volume they take up!" 2011
Montesquieu "the clarity of Steve's setup is something else. I think the emotional connection is really there in spades, so direct and detailed, but far from dry and clinical. Quite an achievement there, Steve." 2011
ADPully "I had to listen to the fabled bass on Steves system today it truely was pretty amazing. Total control authority and power." 2011
Alfie "As I said in the SPU & FR thread these really sounded very special last night words fail to describe how well they hang together, well when Basshead Steve's not turning up the bass & mid-bass horns a little to high!
They are stunning from the woodwork of the conicals through to that effortless sound! " 2011
Turning Japenese "I can confirm the bass is mightily impressive (as is the whole system) and enjoyed a very pleasant evening yesterday on the flimsy excuse of picking up the cabs for nick" 2011
Voiceofthemysterions "They are on another level again from the Tannoys for sure in terms of depth, resolution, imaging and 'air'/transparency, very 'easy' and coherent to listen to.
The tapped horns are very fast and direct, good thing the floor is solid!
I think it is quite astounding what Steve has engineered with speakers and parts bought at real-world prices and a garage workshop.
The results are exemplary in terms of both sound and the woodwork, bearing in mind this is still prototype form.
I'd have something like this if I had the room required, no doubt about it. Very musical indeed, a pleasure to listen to.
Quite an ear-opener switching between a single valve amp and a single TA-2020 t-amp incidentally -not so much in it between them..." Nov 2011
A short Scalford report
"System 13: that's 'Steves' home built horn speakers, some SET amps, and some T-amps.
One of the most phenomenal home built 'speaker set ups ever, and beautifully engineered with incredible detail to response/phasing."
Non-smoking man
"Last night I spent listening to Steve's fabulous horns and learnt a lot from him about horn systems in general and his in particular. That sound is my new reference." Oct 2012
I was lucky enough to recently hear Steves latest version of these (electronic pre-amp x-overs) with the Vitavox S2 compression drivers. It has changed a lot since the earlier system/s which were pretty impressive in themselves.
graham67
I have to say i cannot think of a better sounding hi-fi. it seems to do everything right.
massive scale, very deep but tight bass, fabulous rhythm, forgiving of compressed rock/pop.
Doesn't demand a high quality source - a prosaic MF Cdp (on transport duty) or vinyl front end all sound great.
Non fatiguing Fun to listen to For a horn system, the sweetpot is wide, so can enjoy from multiple spots in the room.
And there is no sign of the honky tonks! August 2013
BTH K-10A
It was great to meet you the other week and have the chance to hear you amazing speakers. August 2013
Bonzo
I have heard 2 way Cessaro's and 2 and 3 way Avantgarde's, also Tune Audio Animas, so it was awesome to compare them to a 5-way horn system which was DIY. Steve ran me through what each driver meant and what specific frequency he covered. I had never heard a church organ in an hifi before, but Steve's tapped horns go down so low that it feels you are listening to new notes in classical, one that you would not know existed. Jan 2014
Montesquieu - revisted
So many impressions! I've been lucky enough to hear Steve's horns a number of times as they've gone through their evolution. Quite early on it was fair to say they were obviously something very different to the norm - detailed, direct, very acute sense of space. A real sense of occasion, and they've gone through a lot of evolution in the intervening time.
This time felt a little different though. With the tractrix horns, and the ribbons settled in, the sense of direct communication was still there but now accompanied by a palpable sense of ease and naturalness. Still the wow factor but it's not grabbing you by the lapels, rather it's drawing you into the music.
I was also profoundly impressed by the DSP X/O DAC Pre. This is a big step up from previously, and I'm sure a big part of the story where clarity and detail come together - so often clarity and detail are the enemy of musical feel but not here.
Coming from spending the previous weekend at the St John Smiths Square Schubertiade - five full-length Schubert concerts over two days, mainly Lieder but also some chamber and piano music - it struck me that this is a very very rare system that gets the natural feel of a piano right (in fact I can hardly think of another). Feb 2014
Ratcatcher
Very impressive is what I thought! Big, bold and effortless all spring to mind with an ease of communication that puts you immediately into that rainy sunday afternoon feeling. Considering the outlay (not taking into account the long hard hours in a shed obviously) its an amazing achievement and I doubt few systems with similar costs could touch it. Feb 2014
The following pages are the DIY journey from 4 way to 5 way front loaded horns.
It started talking to Mr Coco and listening to his 3/4 way solutions and then some research...
Having run a four way with Tannoy GRF's doing the bass, I felt / knew there was something bigger, faster, deeper, tighter to be had.
So research into a mid bass horn - around 90Hz to 350Hz and Tapped horns for deep bass duty, something like 20Hz to 90Hz.
The pages that follow are investigation into and the building of what you see above.
I explore balancing the horn outputs with L-pad, dismissing this as too lossy, and go on to 5 amps, further crossover tweaks and also Anti-mode room equalisation for the Tapped horn deep bass where certain re-inforced frequencies due to room effects play in.
Many thanks for the advice and support from all, especially i_should_coco, without which the build would not have been so successful or rewarding.
It started out as Tannoy GRFs with a horn on top and grew.
http://www.hifiwigwam.com/showthread.php?46846-Getting-the-horn-well-2-to-be-precise&highlight=jbl+2435
Then 4 way
http://www.hifiwigwam.com/showthread.php?53735-Going-4-way-low-mid-mid-horns
Time to start thinking about proper 5 way... and for those who can not wait for the detailed DIY build in the next pages, here they are...
The current incarnation
Original conical setup - Now with Non-smoking man
5 ways - that is:
- Raal's Lazy Ribbon (amorphous) on Tweeter,
- JBL's 2435Be or Vitavox's S2 compression drivers, on upper horns,
- JBL's 2482 or BMS's 4295 Mid compression drivers, on mid horns,
- Eminence's 15" Kappa A, on bass horns,
- Eminence's 15" Kappa Pro LFII on Tapped horns - the cabs in the far corners...
Some more updates.
Here with smooth mouth termination and Raal Lazy ribbon tweeters.
(Steel stands for the mid and upper mid/tweeter now made and allow easy installation & repeatable setup - thinking of Scalford. Left to do; finish them with lacquer etc & decide on a nice looking way of cutting / covering the acoustic damping material)
It meant removing the upper mid horn (smaller conical of the 3) hanger arrangement and coming up with a more flexible clamp arrangement.
Plus of course re-time aligning to get them perfectly in time.
The benefits of this configuration are clear, bringing the upper mid horn detail and immediacy into focus and really showing off it's capabilities.
Note also the extra bracing on the tapped horns - NOT necessary in my room, as they are just ticking over but done for Scalford where they would be driven a lot harder to pressurize a much larger room.
Raal ribbon tweeter waveguides added and also 600z Tractrix upper mid horns... Tractrix here we come! Le Cleach are no doubt nice, but impractical in a normal room functioning horn system, on anything below upper mid frequencies as they are enormous! More details in the most recent pages.
Latest updates: Now with added Tractrix
Next step will be to make some round hyperbolic or tractrix horns for the big mid bass horns...
The conicals will go for firewood.
Here is the set up as it was at the 2012 Scalford show on Sat evening - setup ongoing.
&
Sunday with punters in the room it sounded much better due damping of the bright room.
Now with the Tractrix 200Hz sprayed up to match.
Latest prototyping - smaller Hyperbolic round bass horns. They modelled well in Hornresp and with throat and back box tuning perform better than the big conicals.
Latest is Vitavox S2 compression drivers to replace the trusty JBL2435Be drivers - both are 1.5" throat so same horn can be used.
Now finished the exponential bass horns to match
So what do they sound like?
Well this is the best speaker / amp combo and set up I've ever had. But don't just take my word for it...
A few Wammers have been over for a listen.
Here's what they said:
Coco "I was really looking forward to hearing these as this similar to what I plan to do with my own system.
I certainly wasn't disappointed. They sound absolutely effortless - you get a sense of incredible power, but completely under control. The tapped horn bass is like nothing you've ever heard before. It just pressurises the room and makes it feel like it's not even trying. Like distant thunder!"
and after later listening
"it sounded very good indeed! It has amazing presence and a really effortless presentation. The tube amp has sweetened the upper mid which sounds less grey and more vivid than I previously remember. The slight residual bloom on the upper bass has been eliminated, too. As for the way they pressurise the room at LF... :shock: I imagine they could be used as a weapon/torture device!
Everyone should hear this, time for a bake off?
Edit: Oh and they are f**cking enormous. Nothing prepares you for quite how large they are. Even having seen them several times, they still shock me. The photos just don't capture the sheer volume they take up!" 2011
Montesquieu "the clarity of Steve's setup is something else. I think the emotional connection is really there in spades, so direct and detailed, but far from dry and clinical. Quite an achievement there, Steve." 2011
ADPully "I had to listen to the fabled bass on Steves system today it truely was pretty amazing. Total control authority and power." 2011
Alfie "As I said in the SPU & FR thread these really sounded very special last night
words fail to describe how well they hang together, well when Basshead Steve's not turning up the bass & mid-bass horns a little to high! They are stunning from the woodwork of the conicals through to that effortless sound! " 2011
Turning Japenese "I can confirm the bass is mightily impressive (as is the whole system) and enjoyed a very pleasant evening yesterday on the flimsy excuse of picking up the cabs for nick" 2011
Voiceofthemysterions "They are on another level again from the Tannoys for sure in terms of depth, resolution, imaging and 'air'/transparency, very 'easy' and coherent to listen to.
The tapped horns are very fast and direct, good thing the floor is solid!
I think it is quite astounding what Steve has engineered with speakers and parts bought at real-world prices and a garage workshop.
The results are exemplary in terms of both sound and the woodwork, bearing in mind this is still prototype form.
I'd have something like this if I had the room required, no doubt about it. Very musical indeed, a pleasure to listen to.
Quite an ear-opener switching between a single valve amp and a single TA-2020 t-amp incidentally -not so much in it between them..." Nov 2011
A short Scalford report
"System 13: that's 'Steves' home built horn speakers, some SET amps, and some T-amps.
One of the most phenomenal home built 'speaker set ups ever, and beautifully engineered with incredible detail to response/phasing."
Non-smoking man
"Last night I spent listening to Steve's fabulous horns and learnt a lot from him about horn systems in general and his in particular. That sound is my new reference." Oct 2012
I was lucky enough to recently hear Steves latest version of these (electronic pre-amp x-overs) with the Vitavox S2 compression drivers. It has changed a lot since the earlier system/s which were pretty impressive in themselves.
graham67
I have to say i cannot think of a better sounding hi-fi. it seems to do everything right.
massive scale, very deep but tight bass, fabulous rhythm, forgiving of compressed rock/pop.
Doesn't demand a high quality source - a prosaic MF Cdp (on transport duty) or vinyl front end all sound great.
Non fatiguing Fun to listen to For a horn system, the sweetpot is wide, so can enjoy from multiple spots in the room.
And there is no sign of the honky tonks! August 2013
BTH K-10A
It was great to meet you the other week and have the chance to hear you amazing speakers. August 2013
Bonzo
I have heard 2 way Cessaro's and 2 and 3 way Avantgarde's, also Tune Audio Animas, so it was awesome to compare them to a 5-way horn system which was DIY. Steve ran me through what each driver meant and what specific frequency he covered. I had never heard a church organ in an hifi before, but Steve's tapped horns go down so low that it feels you are listening to new notes in classical, one that you would not know existed. Jan 2014
Montesquieu - revisted
So many impressions! I've been lucky enough to hear Steve's horns a number of times as they've gone through their evolution. Quite early on it was fair to say they were obviously something very different to the norm - detailed, direct, very acute sense of space. A real sense of occasion, and they've gone through a lot of evolution in the intervening time.
This time felt a little different though. With the tractrix horns, and the ribbons settled in, the sense of direct communication was still there but now accompanied by a palpable sense of ease and naturalness. Still the wow factor but it's not grabbing you by the lapels, rather it's drawing you into the music.
I was also profoundly impressed by the DSP X/O DAC Pre. This is a big step up from previously, and I'm sure a big part of the story where clarity and detail come together - so often clarity and detail are the enemy of musical feel but not here.
Coming from spending the previous weekend at the St John Smiths Square Schubertiade - five full-length Schubert concerts over two days, mainly Lieder but also some chamber and piano music - it struck me that this is a very very rare system that gets the natural feel of a piano right (in fact I can hardly think of another). Feb 2014
Ratcatcher
Very impressive is what I thought! Big, bold and effortless all spring to mind with an ease of communication that puts you immediately into that rainy sunday afternoon feeling. Considering the outlay (not taking into account the long hard hours in a shed obviously) its an amazing achievement and I doubt few systems with similar costs could touch it. Feb 2014
The following pages are the DIY journey from 4 way to 5 way front loaded horns.
It started talking to Mr Coco and listening to his 3/4 way solutions and then some research...
Having run a four way with Tannoy GRF's doing the bass, I felt / knew there was something bigger, faster, deeper, tighter to be had.
So research into a mid bass horn - around 90Hz to 350Hz and Tapped horns for deep bass duty, something like 20Hz to 90Hz.
The pages that follow are investigation into and the building of what you see above.
I explore balancing the horn outputs with L-pad, dismissing this as too lossy, and go on to 5 amps, further crossover tweaks and also Anti-mode room equalisation for the Tapped horn deep bass where certain re-inforced frequencies due to room effects play in.
Many thanks for the advice and support from all, especially i_should_coco, without which the build would not have been so successful or rewarding.
