5 Way horn project - big boy system!

[Hayward]

I heard that Be Yamamura damped the Vitavox RH330 by sticking crumbs of cork to the face of the flare of the horn...

 

[Hayward]

Hello SteveCould you tell me the dimensions of the 2 largest front loaded horns please?

Also the freq range they could cover?

I'm looking to make a 2-way horn speaker (maybe not ideal, I know, but that's what I've been planning). My problem is space, WAF, and cost (as usual). I was planning on a Klipsch La Scala Bass with port mod (lying on its side) then front horn on top like e-JMLC-300. Problem is my other half doesn't like the huge rectangular box that is the La Scala. I showed her a picture of Oris Swings and they are the only ones she's like'd so far so I'm thinking about 2 front horns and a tapped horn sub. Would a single tapped horn be so bad?, as I really only have one corner to use for something like that. I'm wanting to cross the front horns over at 500 hz.

Sorry for all the questions but I've been reading your various threads and can see page one has been updated but don't see dimensions on there.

Paul

WAF is your real issue here... You are clearly into the idea of horns and therefore size and cost is only an issue as far as the missus is concerned. What Steve says is true, even 4 ways is a compromise (gaining experience of this myself) but you can get a very good sound out of 3. What music do you listen to?

 

[Hornucopia]

Too long ago to recall, really. (Bass from Klipschorns. though I was happy with them for 20+ years!)

despite the 12 Cubic feet of bass cabinet (folded) it was down only to 50 c/s.

But, of course, dynamic.

My cork fetish only began after learning to love Cork forests and their ecology in Iberia!

Good to know that I'm in exalted company with Be Yamamura!

The Klipsch horn is 3 way, if I recall Chris you have owned them, how would you describe the bass? GIP and Audionote shared a room at a show in Japan and they are a big 3 way speaker, not heard them but Romy liked the design if I recall, possibly from a commercial angle rather than sound maybe....I have heard neither so just interested.

 

[The Beat]

WAF is your real issue here... You are clearly into the idea of horns and therefore size and cost is only an issue as far as the missus is concerned. What Steve says is true, even 4 ways is a compromise (gaining experience of this myself) but you can get a very good sound out of 3. What music do you listen to?

Hello Ritchie

Well she has accepted that I'm going to have something large but I just don't want to take the piss as they will be in the sitting room. I will definitely be making compromises and accept that. I've been speaking with Steve via PM and showed my partner his horns and she likes them. I'm going to need to do some measuring.

I like a lot of different music - Rock, Blues, Jazz and dance like House. I also love simple stuff with just voice and a guitar. Starting to listen to some Classical as well.

Paul

 

[Hayward]

Hello RitchieWell she has accepted that I'm going to have something large but I just don't want to take the piss as they will be in the sitting room. I will definitely be making compromises and accept that. I've been speaking with Steve via PM and showed my partner his horns and she likes them. I'm going to need to do some measuring.

I like a lot of different music - Rock, Blues, Jazz and dance like House. I also love simple stuff with just voice and a guitar. Starting to listen to some Classical as well.

Paul

If your wife has seen the La Scala box and not liked it, I suppose she won't like the GRF either! Given your varied taste in music, I think you would be better satisfied with a box to do the bass/mid bass and compromise on the sub.

 

[The Beat]

If your wife has seen the La Scala box and not liked it, I suppose she won't like the GRF either! Given your varied taste in music, I think you would be better satisfied with a box to do the bass/mid bass and compromise on the sub.

So you don't think I'd be ok with tapped horn(s) then 2 front horns above this (as per Steves largest horns)?

This would give me a 3-way and leave scope to add a tweeter when funds allow, making it 4-way. My partner doesn't like any big box speaker but will probably accept one in the corner or I could build smaller tapped horns if going for a pair. I thought this set-up would be superior to a box for bass/mid-bass design. Maybe superior is the wrong word but I thought it should be able to handle any type of music. Is there something about this I'm missing? (I wouldn't be surprised as setting up a system involves a lot more than I thought when I originally became interested in setting one up).

 

[speedysteve]

So you don't think I'd be ok with tapped horn(s) then 2 front horns above this (as per Steves largest horns)?This would give me a 3-way and leave scope to add a tweeter when funds allow, making it 4-way. My partner doesn't like any big box speaker but will probably accept one in the corner or I could build smaller tapped horns if going for a pair. I thought this set-up would be superior to a box for bass/mid-bass design. Maybe superior is the wrong word but I thought it should be able to handle any type of music. Is there something about this I'm missing? (I wouldn't be surprised as setting up a system involves a lot more than I thought when I originally became interested in setting one up).

Given that you like close mic'd vocals / guitars etc, as well as thump thump dance and rock you will need to pay close attention to that all important upper mode freq band at some point.

1200 to 12000hz in my system. The right compression driver on the right horn is just magical. So clear, crisp immediate without being fatiguing at.

That's where all the money should go.

JBL 2435be's pretty good, Vitavox S2's refurbed excellent, TAD etc...

You will struggle to get anything like that from the mid horn playing up high to say 4/5/6KHz and then tweeter, but it could be pretty good, and get you in there with a 3/4way foot print - add that upper mid once the WAF had be gained or rather tolerated

With DSP x/o that upgrade is easy.

Those saying you might consider boxes should pop over for a listen to mine or Ritchie's. I cannot imagine there being disappointment.

Anyway, boxes are uglier than horns and are less flexible in upgrade path IMO.

Sent using Tapatalk

 

[AmDismal]

You could do tapped horn bass, great big horn for the upper bass (100-500), then something like a JBL 2440/1 on a 330Hz horn, which will play up to 10k. Top it with a tweeter and you're set.

Alternatively, the best alternative to horn bass is open baffle, if you are space limited. The main issue is finding a single driver that can do good deep ob bass and play as high as 500Hz; I think that it would be best to cross over around 250-300Hz, which makes your mid horn a bit big.

 

[speedysteve]

+1!!!Pine pics look good. Is softer wood good because it resonates less?

was trying to think of a way to get Cork in here, but.......can't!

(Unless you lined the inner horn?(-:....)

Most probably. Could be that it resonates at just the right frequency though

A thin cork sheet, if possible to soften somehow could almost be moulded / applied to the horn in one piece - that could be interesting. Would save lots of prep work ready for painting...

 

[The Beat]

Given that you like close mic'd vocals / guitars etc, as well as thump thump dance and rock you will need to pay close attention to that all important upper mode freq band at some point.1200 to 12000hz in my system. The right compression driver on the right horn is just magical. So clear, crisp immediate without being fatiguing at.

That's where all the money should go.

JBL 2435be's pretty good, Vitavox S2's refurbed excellent, TAD etc...

You will struggle to get anything like that from the mid horn playing up high to say 4/5/6KHz and then tweeter, but it could be pretty good, and get you in there with a 3/4way foot print - add that upper mid once the WAF had be gained or rather tolerated

With DSP x/o that upgrade is easy.

Those saying you might consider boxes should pop over for a listen to mine or Ritchie's. I cannot imagine there being disappointment.

Anyway, boxes are uglier than horns and are less flexible in upgrade path IMO.

Being able to upgrade/alter parts as time moves on is appealing.

I already have some parts that I was going to use for my project (was going to build a Cornscala originally) so will look at incorporating these as I'd still be able to alter things in future.

Another question, what is a good listening distance from these horns?

You could do tapped horn bass, great big horn for the upper bass (100-500), then something like a JBL 2440/1 on a 330Hz horn, which will play up to 10k. Top it with a tweeter and you're set.

This is the kind of thing I had in mind.

 

[Hayward]

Adams example is probably a very good solution if your wife will put up with a large bass horn. A box will have a smaller footprint! My bass horns are 1.40 m long with 15" driver. Adams are1.75 I think with a 12. Steves are Shorter with a large mouth... When I started on my path I went box ( onken) mainly as I had no one else to advise me. Since I have become a member here I have heard a few different things which have helped tremendously. My long suffering would disagree! It would probably be a good idea to go and have a listen to a few things to help you choose a path. Be warned though, horns are a serious addiction and you will probably be chasing the dream until you are running five of them actively! And even then you may see other ways... Pm if you would like to hear my work in progress

 

[The Beat]

Adams example is probably a very good solution if your wife will put up with a large bass horn. A box will have a smaller footprint! My bass horns are 1.40 m long with 15" driver. Adams are1.75 I think with a 12. Steves are Shorter with a large mouth... When I started on my path I went box ( onken) mainly as I had no one else to advise me. Since I have become a member here I have heard a few different things which have helped tremendously. My long suffering would disagree! It would probably be a good idea to go and have a listen to a few things to help you choose a path. Be warned though, horns are a serious addiction and you will probably be chasing the dream until you are running five of them actively! And even then you may see other ways... Pm if you would like to hear my work in progress

Thanks for the offer Ritchie but it's a bit of a trek to be honest

I know where I'd like to go with this but space and funds will dictate more than anything. My partner will put up with anything really but I'd just prefer that she likes them.

 

[speedysteve]

Actually the mouth area of Ritchie' s text mid bass horns and my round ones is pretty much the same.

Yep it's the length and throat size that differs.

I thought I'd have to extend them, as discussed earlier but found the JBL 2220's with their low Qts to work just fine.

The more readily available 2225's that non-smoking man leant me also rather good...

As for listening distance, I am about 4.5 to 5m from the diaphragms.

Ritchie is farther away, I think?

When I get Najda expansion boards for full 5 way I plan to try all the horn mouths / tweeter in line at the front and dsp delay to align on all.

 

[Hayward]

When I get Najda expansion boards for full 5 way I plan to try all the horn mouths / tweeter in line at the front and dsp delay to align on all.

Would you do this to see if there is an effect regarding reflections off the other horns?

 

[Hornucopia]

Klipschorns were not TOO bad, WAF-wise, as they were in corners and looked (a bit!) like big corner cupboards!

Still think making tall tapped horns to look like Doric pillars might work! assuming you WANTED a Roman-style living room!

As to Cork lining; Have a vague memory that thin cork is somehow a cork/glue composite anyway. or, failing this, you could use it butted like veneer.

I should put up or shut up!

 

[speedysteve]

Would you do this to see if there is an effect regarding reflections off the other horns?

Yes

Sent using Tapatalk

 

[IslandPink]

Alternatively, the best alternative to horn bass is open baffle, if you are space limited. The main issue is finding a single driver that can do good deep ob bass and play as high as 500Hz; I think that it would be best to cross over around 250-300Hz, which makes your mid horn a bit big.

I very much agree . Unless you can do it 'properly' as Steve has , 4 or pref. 5-way , then you have to do OB I reckon . In particular if you have a horn from say 600-700Hz up , then you can get a good blend from OB lower-mids using a decent-sized low Qts driver on OB ; then bring in a bigger one eg. 15" for bass below 250Hz as the mid-driver rolls off. I've been through a painful 5-year process of coming to this conclusion !

 

[The Beat]

Ok, I need to fire my speakers across the room which is approx 3.8m. Is this too short for the horns to sound good? I could live with them in the room but if they won't work then there's no point.

Also, low Qts has been mentioned for both the length of horn and OB. What is considered low Qts? The driver I have has a Qts of 0.26.

 

[speedysteve]

That's not a bad qts.

Kappa 15a is 0.31

JBL 2225 is 0.28 (from memory)

JBL 2220 is 0.17

I had Tannoy GRFs (horn HF crossing at 1000 and back loaded horn bass), at about 3.5m distance.

With multiway and dsp room correction it will certainly work.

I should coco has his 5 way at even less or thereabouts..

You get into it as long as the drivers are sweet...

Sent using Tapatalk

 

[The Beat]

Sounds promising then. I'll get back to you on the horns as soon as I can

Now, I see you've mentioned DSP again and I know that you'll recommend it so I've purposely avoided mentioning my system plans!

I have some questions, if you have time, but instead of filling up your thread with them I've started a new one:

http://www.hifiwigwam.com/showthread.php?106063-The-Beat-Horn-System&p=1861310#post1861310