A crazy impromptu Qutest power supply bake off this morning.

Fourlegs

WAVE Digital Cables
Wammer
May 5, 2014
6,370
4,011
183
Melton Mowbray
www.wavehighfidelity.com
AKA
Nick
HiFi Trade?
  1. Yes
Nigel @TheFlash has just returned from a weeks cycling holiday and was yearning to recharge his hifi batteries with a cup of Fourlegs coffee and some hifi chat. He therefore invited himself around to Fourlegs Towers this morning and confessed his sins for staying away from hifi for a whole week.

After listening to Nigel recount his holiday highs and lows it was my turn and I suggested he might like to participate in a bit of hifi madness. My kitchen system for those who have not been here has pair of pimped Dali 104 speakers which @Lurch and the south coast posse will recall, driven by an old Musical Fidelity amplifier and connected to a Chord Qutest. The source is an Innuos Zenith running the new 2.0 app and this replaces the Zen Mini Mk3 bought yesterday by @DomT.

I suggested that Nigel might like to hear the Zenith playing a PGGB upscaled 768kHz track from the Opium Moon album because the ability to play these high res files is a new feature of the Innuos 2.0 app. After a couple of minutes we swopped over the USB output from the Zenith and converting it to dual BNC to take advantage of the Qutest’s dual BNC inputs. There was a difference but this post is not really about that.

So far, so good and all was pretty normal stuff for a couple of Wammers on a Sunday morning bake off with coffee to hand and plenty of catching up to do.

I’m not sure Nigel guessed the next offering and nor had I thought of it until just before he arrived but anyone who knows me will know that I carp on for ever and ever about the importance of power supplies. Indeed I use the Sean Jacobs DC4 with my Dave and I was using a Farad Super3 to power the Qutest.

The craziness of the morning kicked in when I suggested that Nigel might like to hear a Sean Jacobs DC4 powering the Qutest.

The Dc4 was ready and waiting having tried it myself only 10 minutes before Nigel arrived but I don’t think he had noticed it until I suggested the swop.

It was the same opening track from Opium Moon we had heard before. So both of us were familiar with the sound having just heard the track about 5 times in a row.

I knew what was going to happen and I was waiting for it. In reality it took rather less time than I had thought. I think it was about 6 seconds into the track. I don’t know, it might have been less.

Anyway, he turned to look at me with a crazy grin. Nigel said it just isn’t possible for that amount of change to the music to come from swoping the DAC power supply.

But it was possible and we had just heard it.

Plainly this is not not something that any sane person would do. Powering a £1,200 DAC with a £4,000 power supply is not a realistic prospect or proposal and we only tried it because we had to hand a DC4 power supply for the Dave which has a separate 5V output and which is perfect for the Qutest.

I don’t know though, maybe it isn’t so crazy if one might decide to upgrade the power supply to the Qutest rather than say adding and MScaler.

For any power supply sceptics, do not worry or fret, the DC4 is now back in the other room powering my Dave. 

Move along, there’s nothing here to see.

A737A9B5-647A-4E44-81A6-0F646E484A7A.jpeg

 
Last edited by a moderator:

TheFlash

Also available in pink
Wammer
Jun 22, 2013
12,479
8,343
208
Rural Leics [system 1] & Kendal [systems 2 & 3]
AKA
Nigel
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
Thanks for the coffee and catch-up, Nick, generous as ever.

Definitely impromptu, definitely mad, and an unbelievably powerful demonstration of what difference a power supply can make. The Farad is hardly a slouch - it's an excellent power supply in its own right - but the DC4 was audibly in a different league.

As you say, Nick, it's highly unlikely anyone would consider powering one of the more modestly priced Chord DACs with such an OTT power supply, but this was a hugely fun and hugely informative experiment.

I think you need to put your name down for a room at Kegworth :) ... your pimped Dalis drew huge admiration at their first Kegworth outing and were highly revealing of the differences this morning.

 
  • Like
Reactions: uzzy and joolz

uzzy

Grumpy Old Git
Wammer
Apr 16, 2006
8,565
4,633
158
NN38TA Northampton
AKA
David
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
Interesting story guys - of course PS Audio years ago discovered that putting "oversized" power supplies in their amps and what surprised them most was doing the same with preamps, upped the sound quality considerably.  Perhaps the same is true of DAC power supplies?  I guess the analysis should be is there anything in the circuitry of the DC4 that is special or different to other DAC power supplies?

 

Fourlegs

WAVE Digital Cables
Wammer
May 5, 2014
6,370
4,011
183
Melton Mowbray
www.wavehighfidelity.com
AKA
Nick
HiFi Trade?
  1. Yes
Interesting story guys - of course PS Audio years ago discovered that putting "oversized" power supplies in their amps and what surprised them most was doing the same with preamps, upped the sound quality considerably.  Perhaps the same is true of DAC power supplies?  I guess the analysis should be is there anything in the circuitry of the DC4 that is special or different to other DAC power supplies?
Hi David, well the DC4 undoubtedly has some special sauce mixed in with its design and components. Sean Jacobs reputedly designed this power supply as being the best he could design and make regardless of cost.

I have just again plugged the DC4 into my Qutest because I really couldn’t quite believe what Nigel and I heard yesterday and yet here I am shaking my head again in disbelief about what I am hearing from the diminutive Qutest.

I really do wonder if a DC4 Qutest is better than a stock Dave for the money. Total cost for a DC4 Qutest is £5,200 and a stock Dave is upwards of £8,000

Nigel @TheFlash wants me to take a room at Scalford Kegworth with the Qutest plugged into my ancient MF X-A2 amplifier and pimped Dali 104 speakers and then do the power supply trick with the DC4 and Qutest. . . . . .  I dunno, maybe.

I am sat here still wondering at what I am hearing. 

 

uzzy

Grumpy Old Git
Wammer
Apr 16, 2006
8,565
4,633
158
NN38TA Northampton
AKA
David
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
I have just again plugged the DC4 into my Qutest because I really couldn’t quite believe what Nigel and I heard yesterday and yet here I am shaking my head again in disbelief about what I am hearing from the diminutive Qutest.
Well I am not, shall we say, surprised.  We have seen over many years how improved power supplies improve the sound of preamps and power amps so logic might suggest the same is true of DACs.  Have you compared the Qutest with the DC4 with the Dave with DC4 in your main system yet?

 

joolz

Wammer
Wammer
Jan 18, 2017
507
240
0
Maidstone
AKA
Julian
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
Sorry chaps, but I just don't get a £4K power supply on anything; OK, maybe a Tesla.
I think the point of the experiment was not to do with the cost of the power supply, but to see how a more modest component could be coupled to it, and see what difference it could make. Good left field thinking...

 

Fourlegs

WAVE Digital Cables
Wammer
May 5, 2014
6,370
4,011
183
Melton Mowbray
www.wavehighfidelity.com
AKA
Nick
HiFi Trade?
  1. Yes
Well I am not, shall we say, surprised.  We have seen over many years how improved power supplies improve the sound of preamps and power amps so logic might suggest the same is true of DACs.  Have you compared the Qutest with the DC4 with the Dave with DC4 in your main system yet?
Yes, DC4 takes the Qutest closer to the DC4 Dave but I would by lying if I said it is the same. 

 
  • Like
Reactions: uzzy

bencat

Amplifier Destroyer
Wammer Plus
Feb 6, 2010
10,309
8,115
208
Liverpool
AKA
Andrew
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
@FourlegsI know this is a very subjective question and I also over time know that you are shall we say a little more exacting than others over sound quality so could you just think about this for at least more than a minute .

You note that having tried the DC4 with both Dave and Qutest and there is a for you at least easy to hear difference with the Qutest being closer to the Dave but not as good . Is that difference worth the additional cost ? I mean in general single listening which is what most of us do not a side by side comparison . I think what I am asking is, is the DC4 Qutest combination improved and good enough to live with on a daily basis or would having heard the Dave become an itch you would just have to scratch . I know that cost is relative for each of us so I am not trying to make any point about the costs involved here they are what they and while way out of reach for me the differences are interesting and valid anyway,

 

MF 1000

Extreme Full Range 😱
Wammer Plus
Apr 5, 2011
6,172
4,732
193
Caego
AKA
Keith
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
Nigel @TheFlash wants me to take a room at Scalford Kegworth with the Qutest plugged into my ancient MF X-A2 amplifier and pimped Dali 104 speakers and then do the power supply trick with the DC4 and Qutest. . . . . .  I dunno, maybe.

I am sat here still wondering at what I am hearing. 
I’ll be down in your area again at the end of the month Nick if you want an independent pair of ears over curry & red wine as we’ve done in the past 

 

Fourlegs

WAVE Digital Cables
Wammer
May 5, 2014
6,370
4,011
183
Melton Mowbray
www.wavehighfidelity.com
AKA
Nick
HiFi Trade?
  1. Yes
@bencat Andrew, this crazy bit of fun was not meant to be any more than that. A ‘what if I did this’ moment, it was rather like Everest, it was there so I had to try it. There was never any thought that it was a serious proposition.

But the sound uplift was so great that it completely disrupted my Nick’s Power Supply Rule of Thumb where I have previously stated that I thought that it was nearly always worth considering spending up to 50% of the cost of the DAC (or other device) on an upgraded power supply. So that rule would put a power supply for the Qutest in the £600 limit bracket which was my own previously self imposed limit on what I spent on my Qutest power supply.

As to whether a DC4 Qutest is good enough to stop a Dave itch is an interesting question. Last night I was listening again to the DC4 Qutest and stayed up far later than my normal bedtime listening to albums because they all sounded so good. Maybe a DC4 Qutest at £5,200 is indeed enough to stop a vanilla Dave itch at £8,500 but if the pockets were deep enough for a DC4 Dave (£8,500 + £5,400 = £13,900) then no, the DC4 Qutest is not enough to compete with that and stop the itch. This is not just a side by side comparison thing, the sound of a DC4 Dave does not need a comparison for reference in order for one to delight in its sound.

I am not for a minute suggesting that all those thinking of spending in the £5k area on a Dac should realistically consider a DC4 Qutest but a friend is visiting at the end of next week with his ~ £5k  Holo May dac to compare to my Dave and I will of course try the DC4 Qutest up against the Holo May because they are indeed in the same price area.

I see that @MF 1000 has just invited himself to currry at the end of this month so another person will then have heard a DC4 Qutest. I telephoned Sean Jacobs yesterday to tell him about the DC4 Qutest and I think he will be coming to visit and hear the DC4 Qutest before not too long.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • Like
Reactions: greybeard and joolz

Fourlegs

WAVE Digital Cables
Wammer
May 5, 2014
6,370
4,011
183
Melton Mowbray
www.wavehighfidelity.com
AKA
Nick
HiFi Trade?
  1. Yes
I’ll be down in your area again at the end of the month Nick if you want an independent pair of ears over curry & red wine as we’ve done in the past 
You are always welcome Keith. Just let me know when and we will line up the power supplies. No need to bring your own transformer this time!!

 
  • Upvote
Reactions: MF 1000

bencat

Amplifier Destroyer
Wammer Plus
Feb 6, 2010
10,309
8,115
208
Liverpool
AKA
Andrew
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
Thanks Nick for a very full reply I easily get that having heard a better option it is often very hard to go back to an option that is excellent but just not as good . If things could be perfect in the hi fi world it would be possible to get the cheaper but high quality option and not listen to the better one but there would always be a nagging feeling of what if i suppose . Sometimes I hate this search for the best quality music but accept it is at many levels for all of us and hearing about things is always interesting and sometimes challenging . Look forward to the added views to come. If you could bring your small outfit to Kegworth it would make for a great and interesting listen I am sure.

 
  • Like
Reactions: greybeard

DomT

Food and coffee and rock n roll
Wammer Plus
Jul 23, 2019
10,327
9,594
198
Village near Nottingham.
AKA
Dom
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
Hi Nick

A quick question on the nature of the changes. 

From our listening session on Saturday the difference between Zen Mini and Zenith was what I would call ‘hifi stuff’ eg detail etc. And it was the same between the Red Book CD track and Upsampled track and I mentioned this at the time.

But the difference between the Aries Mini and Zen Mini was a musical one eg bass drum was played differently, timbre was different etc.

Is the DC4 doing the ‘hifi stuff’ or the ‘musical stuff’.
 

 

Firebottle

Wammer
Wammer
Jun 13, 2020
313
304
83
The Black Country
AKA
Alan
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
Always always always worth upgrading power supplies, anything that is switching needs to come out pronto.

I have just upgraded a lowly Soekris (price not performance) by bypassing the high frequency converter giving +-7V internally, with an external low noise linear psu.

Result - greater resolution.

 

Fourlegs

WAVE Digital Cables
Wammer
May 5, 2014
6,370
4,011
183
Melton Mowbray
www.wavehighfidelity.com
AKA
Nick
HiFi Trade?
  1. Yes
Hi Nick

A quick question on the nature of the changes. 

From our listening session on Saturday the difference between Zen Mini and Zenith was what I would call ‘hifi stuff’ eg detail etc. And it was the same between the Red Book CD track and Upsampled track and I mentioned this at the time.

But the difference between the Aries Mini and Zen Mini was a musical one eg bass drum was played differently, timbre was different etc.

Is the DC4 doing the ‘hifi stuff’ or the ‘musical stuff’.
 
Hi Dom, musical stuff.

Big grin MUSICAL STUFF!

 
  • Like
Reactions: DomT and bencat

dave

incurable tinkerer
Wammer
Mar 24, 2014
1,605
924
158
cambs
AKA
dave
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
Interesting result. From some recent discussions on the forum, for my mind at least, I drew the conclusion that some, mainly digital kit benefits from cleaner power. This is in no way meaning to disrespect anyone incidentally, just my engineering observation. There is no obvious magic in the DC4, that I can see from the pictures on the web, unless you include the "nice electrolytics". On the other hand it would appear to do nothing particularly wrong, as it would be unlikely to generate much noise of  its own, although I could think of a few improvements in input-output isolation, which may or may not make any difference. Interesting to note it seems to use of the shelf linear regulators. With regards to using oversized power supplies for low level circuits, it is outside my experience, but I did visit Focusrite in the 90's and was surprised how many huge power supplies there mixing desk needed, hazy memory of several 1kW linear supplies, huge toroids. I questioned the size, for running a circuit that predominantly ran NE5532 opamps, but they said it sounded better....
I recently bought a Berisford DAC from the classified, and I am going to make a power supply for it. The one supplied is an ungrounded Maplin switcher, and I don't like being electrocuted by it (Y caps) whilst plugging it in to the rest of my grounded stereo. I don't think I will hear any difference (pre-emptive declaration of expectation bias).

 
  • Like
Reactions: Griff500

Latest posts

Forum statistics

Threads
113,444
Messages
2,451,263
Members
70,783
Latest member
reg66

Latest Articles