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The Abbot

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Hi chaps,

I did a thread last year re. ES14 spkr replacement ideas, the thread then went on an interesting new tangent exploring instead, putting in new tweeters. FatMarley & eddie-baby very helpful, my thanks again to them.

I tried falcon who said he'd ask a designer for the tweeter spec, to choose a new seas type of theirs ( was the recommended idea). No reply, tried a few times. Forget that then.

Going back over the thread & as long @ 12 pages.. I need a fresh start. Crack on with something.

@Fatmarley mentioned he had some monacor tweets, type: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/125353700897?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&fromMakeTrack=true

As these very affordable, & looking at the baffle design ( mdf plate, holes in), I now think I could make a new plate. 9mm birch ply > router, 30mm centre hole, bit of fettling. And just have a go. If it doesn't work out plan B) try some seas ones mentioned on the other thread. Plan C) put it all back as it was!

---

I just want to check, ideally with FatM, if there's anything I've missed before having a try with these Monacors?

Thanks for reading my drivel, Abbot.
 

Fatmarley

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Hi chaps,

I did a thread last year re. ES14 spkr replacement ideas, the thread then went on an interesting new tangent exploring instead, putting in new tweeters. FatMarley & eddie-baby very helpful, my thanks again to them.

I tried falcon who said he'd ask a designer for the tweeter spec, to choose a new seas type of theirs ( was the recommended idea). No reply, tried a few times. Forget that then.

Going back over the thread & as long @ 12 pages.. I need a fresh start. Crack on with something.

@Fatmarley mentioned he had some monacor tweets, type: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/125353700897?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&fromMakeTrack=true

As these very affordable, & looking at the baffle design ( mdf plate, holes in), I now think I could make a new plate. 9mm birch ply > router, 30mm centre hole, bit of fettling. And just have a go. If it doesn't work out plan B) try some seas ones mentioned on the other thread. Plan C) put it all back as it was!

---

I just want to check, ideally with FatM, if there's anything I've missed before having a try with these Monacors?

Thanks for reading my drivel, Abbot.

For some reason, I didn't get a notification, and I only just noticed this post on the off chance.

The only problem is that they are a bit more sensitive than the original tweeters, so you will need to attenuate them a bit.

Are your ES14s bi-wireable?
 

The Abbot

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For some reason, I didn't get a notification, and I only just noticed this post on the off chance.

The only problem is that they are a bit more sensitive than the original tweeters, so you will need to attenuate them a bit.

Are your ES14s bi-wireable?
Hiya FatM! summer greetings to you. This won't be a long thread.. promise. Just need to check a few things & gonna have a go. Will do progress pics.

Yes in fact they are biwirable, tho I have jumpers on the back at the mo (using 'single-wired' from naim amp).

Got email from ProAc ( asked for the studio 125 tweet model ) who gave me an odd seas model number which doesn't check out on the www as anything. So gonna ask Seas, give them this odd number.. see if I can track this tweeter down: I'm still sort of gunning about the idea of putting in this tweeter. If its reasonably suitable.

But may well try these Monacors first you see, as only £30 ish, & may like them: & as you sort of recommended the idea -as feasable- tho I await your thoughts in the sensitivity aspect.

Muchos gratias, Abbot
 

Fatmarley

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Hiya FatM! summer greetings to you. This won't be a long thread.. promise. Just need to check a few things & gonna have a go. Will do progress pics.

Yes in fact they are biwirable, tho I have jumpers on the back at the mo (using 'single-wired' from naim amp).

Got email from ProAc ( asked for the studio 125 tweet model ) who gave me an odd seas model number which doesn't check out on the www as anything. So gonna ask Seas, give them this odd number.. see if I can track this tweeter down: I'm still sort of gunning about the idea of putting in this tweeter. If its reasonably suitable.

But may well try these Monacors first you see, as only £30 ish, & may like them: & as you sort of recommended the idea -as feasable- tho I await your thoughts in the sensitivity aspect.

Muchos gratias, Abbot

Hi Abbot :)

How a tweeter sounds, depends a lot on the baffle size and the position of the tweeter on the baffle. The Seas tweeter you like was on a different width baffle, and at a different height/position (offset) on the baffle. On the Epos ES14 baffle, it will measure different and sound different.

In this simulation, the Blue line is on the Epos ES14 Baffle, and the Grey line is on the Proac Studio 125. Obviously this simulation is unrealistic because it assumes a tweeter with a perfectly flat frequency response from 10hz to 20khz (not possible), but it does show what baffle diffraction will do to a tweeter.

1658469306811.png

That's the mess that speaker designers have to try and flatten.
A waveguide takes out all the baffle diffraction dips and bumps, but only down to a certain frequency, and that depends on the size of the waveguide (the larger it is, the lower in frequency it works). The Monacor has a very small waveguide, and only works from about 10khz to 20khz (at a rough guess), so will still have those dips and peaks in the response.

Although quite a bit more expensive, the Morel Cat 378 can work with a very simple crossover, and may be your best chance of success. Having a decent sized waveguide means it will have a nice, linear frequency response on the baffle, too.
In the spec sheet (link) it shows a crossover point around 1.8khz with a 5.6uf capacitor. You need a crossover point of about 3.5khz (according to the stereophile measurements), so would need a smaller capacitor, and a resistor to bring the level down. I'd buy a few 7 to 10 watt ceramic wirewound resistors from say 2ohm to 8ohm and a small selection of caps to play with (say 2.2uf to 4.7uf).

You could replace the biwire links on your ES14s with some short lengths of cable connected to banana plugs or whatever to try different combinations of caps and resistors. On the positive tweeter input, in series with the tweeter, I'd try something like 4.7R resistor to 3.3uf cap to start with.
 
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The Abbot

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Hi FatM. That's very interesting info, appreciated. It dies open a new avenue I hadn't accounted for with suggesting the morel. About 5x the cost though of your other original suggestion, the monacor one. And almost 2x the cost of the seas "125" idea tweeter.

Does this morel suggestion here mean that your original idea, the monacor, is now in retrospect not a valid suggestion?

I was close to ordering a pair, being so affordable. I think you mentioned they might only need a minimal crossover tweak, should this be neccessary. The film caps.. a few pairs of for eg, will increace the morel idea to maybe 6x the monacor cost. I'm getting -way- out of £ league then you see.

One thing that doesn't help, I admit, is I cannot understand the graphs or even what a 'flat frequency
response is'. None of it at all. But thst doesn't mean I can't solder in a new tweeter, make a baffle plate ( the epos usefully has a separate baffle for midbass, & for the tweeter, a simple-enough mdf rectangle) & solder an additional cap for eg. So although I can't understand the tech info, the end result could still be achieved. That is, with your & for eg eddie-baby's very kind help.

Thanks alot, Abbot
 

Fatmarley

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Hi FatM. That's very interesting info, appreciated. It dies open a new avenue I hadn't accounted for with suggesting the morel. About 5x the cost though of your other original suggestion, the monacor one. And almost 2x the cost of the seas "125" idea tweeter.

Does this morel suggestion here mean that your original idea, the monacor, is now in retrospect not a valid suggestion?

I was close to ordering a pair, being so affordable. I think you mentioned they might only need a minimal crossover tweak, should this be neccessary. The film caps.. a few pairs of for eg, will increace the morel idea to maybe 6x the monacor cost. I'm getting -way- out of £ league then you see.

One thing that doesn't help, I admit, is I cannot understand the graphs or even what a 'flat frequency
response is'. None of it at all. But thst doesn't mean I can't solder in a new tweeter, make a baffle plate ( the epos usefully has a separate baffle for midbass, & for the tweeter, a simple-enough mdf rectangle) & solder an additional cap for eg. So although I can't understand the tech info, the end result could still be achieved. That is, with your & for eg eddie-baby's very kind help.

Thanks alot, Abbot

The Monacor DT-25n is a very nice sounding tweeter, regardless of the price.` I only really suggested the Morel because it's a tweeter that it's known to work well with a very simple crossover. It may be that the Monacor can be made to work with a simple crossover too.

Whatever you use, I'd be surprised if they didn't need to come to me to be measured and tweaked.
 

The Abbot

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Hi FatM. I may as well go for the monacor as a first dibs try. Would you suggest any particular baffle difference to ' in the middle' ? Im gonna keep the original baffles & tweets, not mess about with either; it might be that afterwards the originals just gel better, & so they go back in who knows.

£35 & some woodwork.. seems a decent punt. I'm popping to & from Blockley, nth gloucs, reasonably often with my oldies thereabouts. So the idea of bringing to you, if you're still willing & able, & should I need to.. is feasable. If my old vw can make it thst is!

Thanks alot, Abbot
 

Fatmarley

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To keep things simple, I'd just try and keep the tweeter in the same position as the original one.

Are you going to rebate the new baffle, so the tweeter sits flush? I know it's a pain, but it's well worth doing.

 
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The Abbot

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To keep things simple, I'd just try and keep the tweeter in the same position as the original one.

Are you going to rebate the new baffle, so the tweeter sits flush? I know it's a pain, but it's well worth doing.


Hi Fat M.

Yes flush mounting- good clip that makes sense as to why to do this certainly.

As to - how- I can is another matter. I need to make a small jig for my router etc.. but should be possible.

I'm now wondering about your morels! I mean it might be worth this idea, if it makes the likelihood of the whole plan more attainable results-wise, ie mating well with the existing driver, & its 'single cap' crossover (which I have no idea is a good thing or a bad thing with regard to my idea of replacing the tweeter).

And If it's a snoozy tweeter too.. wont be my cuppa. Morel seem to be as as ascociated with some pretty high end spkrs I think though. Its better detail, less rolled off up high, & a bit less tizz is my goal.

Thanks for your help- Abbot
 

Fatmarley

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Hi Fat M.

Yes flush mounting- good clip that makes sense as to why to do this certainly.

As to - how- I can is another matter. I need to make a small jig for my router etc.. but should be possible.

I'm now wondering about your morels! I mean it might be worth this idea, if it makes the likelihood of the whole plan more attainable results-wise, ie mating well with the existing driver, & its 'single cap' crossover (which I have no idea is a good thing or a bad thing with regard to my idea of replacing the tweeter).

And If it's a snoozy tweeter too.. wont be my cuppa. Morel seem to be as as ascociated with some pretty high end spkrs I think though. Its better detail, less rolled off up high, & a bit less tizz is my goal.

Thanks for your help- Abbot
There are some cheap circle cutting router jigs on eBay - so may be worth a look.

The only real advantage of a single cap is more of your budget can go into that cap. Not that I would spend much on caps until the crossover is optimised. The frequency response is far, far more important than exotic capacitors. Something like this would be good for experimenting - https://www.hificollective.co.uk/catalog/jb-capacitors.html - And cheap ceramic wirewounds here - https://www.hificollective.co.uk/catalog/low-cost-ceramic-resistors.html

If after experimenting you feel you have something that sounds great, you could then think about trying something better - I personally like the Ansar Supersound polypropylene, and would choose those over some far more expensive Janzen and Mundorf caps. If I was going to push the boat out, I really like the Audyn True Copper Max, but they are huge and very expensive. They are very natural sounding and don't suffer from that 'glassy' sound some polprops can.

The Monacor isn't a snoozy tweeter. I haven't heard the Morel, but it's well regarded, so I'd be surprised if it didn't sound great. It certainly measures far better than the original Epos ES14 tweeter.
 

The Abbot

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Hi FatM. Interesting thoughts there again- from my experience I can't tell the difference between one of those blue/ silver ubiquitous 'budget' caps found in 80's speakers.. & a fairly decent film replacement, like Ansar.

That might be a good thing is my point- I'm not going to be nitpicking so far, probably, because my ears just can't detect this tiny level of difference. They can in my preamp though, one feedback cap to the next for eg, on the important gain board (old modded naim 32.5).

So would the morel choice mean -just- the single cap in there presently, would need changing? It seems the less I need to tinker with the crossover ( if a single cap can be said to be a crossover) the less the overall cost would be.. ie the better. Fairly good Ansar film caps are like £7 a pop iirc. If I had to add inductors, wirewounds, more than 1 cap, all on a board & ' designed' & fitted in somehow.. it's quite alot more than the job I had in mind.
There are some cheap circle cutting router jigs on eBay - so may be worth a look.

The only real advantage of a single cap is more of your budget can go into that cap. Not that I would spend much on caps until the crossover is optimised. The frequency response is far, far more important than exotic capacitors. Something like this would be good for experimenting - https://www.hificollective.co.uk/catalog/jb-capacitors.html - And cheap ceramic wirewounds here - https://www.hificollective.co.uk/catalog/low-cost-ceramic-resistors.html

If after experimenting you feel you have something that sounds great, you could then think about trying something better - I personally like the Ansar Supersound polypropylene, and would choose those over some far more expensive Janzen and Mundorf caps. If I was going to push the boat out, I really like the Audyn True Copper Max, but they are huge and very expensive. They are very natural sounding and don't suffer from that 'glassy' sound some polprops can.

The Monacor isn't a snoozy tweeter. I haven't heard the Morel, but it's well regarded, so I'd be surprised if it didn't sound great. It certainly measures far better than the original Epos ES14 tweeter.

Hi again FatM.

I've got 2 morels in a basket in a german site, ready to buy. So just got to assess import duty ( I can't understand a thing with this brexit baloney) & the morel plan will be started. Excite!

Great hificollective links there, appreciated. Far cheaper bits than I had anticipated, damn useful place to know about too. May well be that these types would suffice too if the fancy ones only add a gnat's more mojo, to my increacingly, sproutingly hairy 50 yr old ears.

This is what happens when you start going bald you see. It begins growing inwards, & comes out your ears & nose.

Abbot.
 

Fatmarley

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If a single cap works, you'll be incredibly lucky. Saying that, it doesn't look like the crossover is perfectly in phase anyway (if the Stereophile measurements are anything to go by), so not only is there a chance of a more linear frequency response with a new tweeter, there's a chance of improving the phase tracking. Doing a quick Google search suggests there's a 2.2uf capacitor in series with your current tweeter. Looking here, the cap is cable tied to the tweeter. To save money, it could be worth trying the original 2.2uf cap first, you may be lucky.

Have you any way of measuring the speakers? There are apps you can download to smartphones, that would help you to see a relative difference. If you could measure the speakers now, and then after you replace the tweeters, we could get an idea of how well they integrate, and what may need to be done to improve things.

I'm the same age as you, luckily most of my hair is still on my head though. Some is trying to escape out of my ears and nose, but I shave it or the GF pulls it out for me.
 

The Abbot

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Haha escaping I like that. The growing inwards line was actually Mick Miller, his opening joke to break the ice with an audience, with his ridiculously bald look (like a monk-mullet). You may have seen him as Moz's dad in bbc2's fab IDEAL comedy.

Anyway Im gonna go for these morels. Will give you a shout once fettled into a baffle.

Thanks, Abbot
 
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The Abbot

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If a single cap works, you'll be incredibly lucky. Saying that, it doesn't look like the crossover is perfectly in phase anyway (if the Stereophile measurements are anything to go by), so not only is there a chance of a more linear frequency response with a new tweeter, there's a chance of improving the phase tracking. Doing a quick Google search suggests there's a 2.2uf capacitor in series with your current tweeter. Looking here, the cap is cable tied to the tweeter. To save money, it could be worth trying the original 2.2uf cap first, you may be lucky.

Have you any way of measuring the speakers? There are apps you can download to smartphones, that would help you to see a relative difference. If you could measure the speakers now, and then after you replace the tweeters, we could get an idea of how well they integrate, and what may need to be done to improve things.

I'm the same age as you, luckily most of my hair is still on my head though. Some is trying to escape out of my ears and nose, but I shave it or the GF pulls it out for me.

Yes I recall it is soldered to the back of the tweeter & glued on.

I'm having a - morel - rethink ( that's a very clever pun ) because I've read morel are mfr'd in israel. Hmm.

I don't know about 'measuring' the speakers FatM I'm sorry. I have an ipad, but not a very clever brain ( I think some internally sprouting hair has affected my 12 neurons). I could be guided how & pass on the info via here-?
 

The Abbot

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2B026F0A-1A53-45AE-9464-2D7EFECECC2A.jpeg

(Mick Miller. sporting the monk-mullet, popular in very exclusive parts of tibet).

@Fatmarley is " Decibel: dB Sound Level Meter ( Audio Noise Spectrum Analyzer ) " the sort of app you mean?

This one's afaict free download on my ipad, from the apple app store. It's language of another dimension to me.
 
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Fatmarley

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Yes I recall it is soldered to the back of the tweeter & glued on.

I'm having a - morel - rethink ( that's a very clever pun ) because I've read morel are mfr'd in israel. Hmm.

I don't know about 'measuring' the speakers FatM I'm sorry. I have an ipad, but not a very clever brain ( I think some internally sprouting hair has affected my 12 neurons). I could be guided how & pass on the info via here-?

Another option would be the Wavecor TWO30WA12. I have a pair here, and they are excellent tweeters.

I've just bought an ipad, so I could have a go at measuring my own speakers to see if it's worth bothering - I'll get back to you on that...

 

Fatmarley

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Doing a quick search suggests Ipad/iphone frequency measuring apps aren't very accurate at all. May be best to forget that idea.
 

Fatmarley

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I've got measurements of the Wavecor tweeter, and it looks like a 4.7R resistor with a 1.8uf cap should give you something near to a 2nd order roll-off at about 3.5khz (3.5khz being the crossover point of the ES14).
 

The Abbot

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I've got measurements of the Wavecor tweeter, and it looks like a 4.7R resistor with a 1.8uf cap should give you something near to a 2nd order roll-off at about 3.5khz (3.5khz being the crossover point of the ES14).
Interesting, thanks for the info. But mfr in china.. I have similar reservations, plus, if they'd fail: I tend to listen with the wick at 12-2 o'clock (naim 140, @ 45wpc). I read this is rated @45w.

What about back to the monacor idea? If this goes well & I wanted "more" I could sell on, & be in a decent position then to go to 2nd base, either morel (hmm) or ideally something danish'ish.

Thanks, SC
 

Fatmarley

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The tweeter will only see a fraction of that 45w. That's why most tweeters only have a 7 to 10 watt resistor in series.

The huge advantage of the Wavecor is the fact that I have measurements of it already. Ironically, the Wavecor has better quality control than the Monacor. My Wavecor tweets measure pretty much identical, and are very well made with copper in the voice coil gap etc. They also don't have ferrofluid which sounds better to my ears.

The Monacor tweets are a bargain, but they usually measure slightly different to each other, and they'll most likely need a more complicated crossover.
 

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