Angle of the dangle - is it just me?

Jules_S

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Doing some experimenting at home this week on speaker positioning. Encouraged by the advice in the owners manual of my ML Summits I jacked up the rears quite substantially, to get the ESL panels positioned vertically rather than canted-back as they usually are. I found that I definitely preferred the overall tonality and presentation by doing that - certainly it suits my hearing profile anyway.

That's not my main point however, but it did lead on to my "sudden" realisation of something else that has had a profound effect on my listening. I can't say with any certainty if this has always been the case for me in my room or not, but I was suddenly aware that if I kept the same listening position but simply dropped my head (let's say I was navel-gazing!) then the overall balance of the sound changed, with a quite significant increase in upper midrange and top-end, and improved clarity to boot. I can't over-emphasise that this really was a massive difference for me - like cleaning grubby windows. Suddenly I was aware of hearing all sorts of detail in the music that I had not noticed before, it just sprang to life and became far more involving. I generally don't believe in this "night and day" stuff - most changes I find are quite subtle in the grand scheme of things, but this was far from subtle.

I also noticed (through rather random experimentation) that I can achieve pretty much the same result by very slightly bending down or forward the top part of my pinnae (no smirking at the back!). It's different to just cupping hands behind my ears - that makes a huge difference too but more in the midrange rather than the upper frequencies I find.

I just wondered if anyone else has noticed the same phenomenon of change through looking down while listening, rather than looking ahead? I wondered if it was something specific to ESL / planar type speakers rather than conventional dynamic drivers. Be interested to hear anyone's findings. It's also got me to thinking how I could preserve this change, whilst avoiding me getting neckache by staring at my feet all night!
 

zeta4

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Reminds me of when I was working for Innersound, makers of hybrid electrostats. To set the panel angles up for the best sound we used to place a small torch on top of our heads pointing to each panel in turn when sitting in the listening chair and adjusted the electrostat panel angles until the torch reflection was dead in the centre of the panel.

Worked a treat but I got very strange looks from customers ( and the mrs !).
 

John (big)

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Doing some experimenting at home this week on speaker positioning. Encouraged by the advice in the owners manual of my ML Summits I jacked up the rears quite substantially, to get the ESL panels positioned vertically rather than canted-back as they usually are. I found that I definitely preferred the overall tonality and presentation by doing that - certainly it suits my hearing profile anyway.

That's not my main point however, but it did lead on to my "sudden" realisation of something else that has had a profound effect on my listening. I can't say with any certainty if this has always been the case for me in my room or not, but I was suddenly aware that if I kept the same listening position but simply dropped my head (let's say I was navel-gazing!) then the overall balance of the sound changed, with a quite significant increase in upper midrange and top-end, and improved clarity to boot. I can't over-emphasise that this really was a massive difference for me - like cleaning grubby windows. Suddenly I was aware of hearing all sorts of detail in the music that I had not noticed before, it just sprang to life and became far more involving. I generally don't believe in this "night and day" stuff - most changes I find are quite subtle in the grand scheme of things, but this was far from subtle.

I also noticed (through rather random experimentation) that I can achieve pretty much the same result by very slightly bending down or forward the top part of my pinnae (no smirking at the back!). It's different to just cupping hands behind my ears - that makes a huge difference too but more in the midrange rather than the upper frequencies I find.

I just wondered if anyone else has noticed the same phenomenon of change through looking down while listening, rather than looking ahead? I wondered if it was something specific to ESL / planar type speakers rather than conventional dynamic drivers. Be interested to hear anyone's findings. It's also got me to thinking how I could preserve this change, whilst avoiding me getting neckache by staring at my feet all night!

always had mine at slight angle with base straigh and horizontal
modw 36.5 and logans by https://www.flickr.com/photos/158267783@N02/, on Flickr
I have written before One Thing Audio Rupert stands which I use with my OTA Quad 57's have 2 bolts at the rear allowing the rear of the speaker to sit like they were on Quad feet or to bring the back up thereby making the front vertical not curved back; In my case after listening at length still not quite vertical works best in my room. There are 3 wood screws at the front fitted loose then tightened when adjusted on the rear bolts

The stands raise the speaker about 10" Peter Walker used chairs to do the same have you tried raising yours?
 

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My Quad ESL 57 are on stands raising them about 18 inches off the floor I also have sprung aero dampers under each foot and the ones on the rear are higher than those on the front . Overall this makes the panels almost upright and pointing straight not as they were designed which was to pint at the ceiling and bounce the sound . Result is huge improvement in imaging and width and it takes away the turn your head and the image collapses problem many quote with this speaker . I would certainly suggest that if you can do a progressive lift off the floor with adjustable feet you should be able to get the same effect when you are sitting comfortably in your normal seated position as you get be bending forward . Once you have the required height dialed in then you can look for some long term solutions that could offer you some vibration resistance as well . Gaia feet come to mind but they are quite expensive but there are lots of cheaper alternatives .
 

Nopiano

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It’s pretty specific to these type of very beaming designs ime. I tried the same when I had the more modest ML ESLs here, and they’re definitely brighter when vertical if you’re listening sitting down. However, I never got them sounding quite right in our fairly well damped room - the bass always overwhelmed the top. When you look at their brochures, the living spaces tend to be brick, glass, hard floors etc., (think loft apartment) very different to our room, and quite a few typical British living areas.

I thought I was patient but they beat me. I sincerely hope you have better luck with a different amp, because they can sound great.
 
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Jules_S

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Reminds me of when I was working for Innersound, makers of hybrid electrostats. To set the panel angles up for the best sound we used to place a small torch on top of our heads pointing to each panel in turn when sitting in the listening chair and adjusted the electrostat panel angles until the torch reflection was dead in the centre of the panel.

Worked a treat but I got very strange looks from customers ( and the mrs !).
ML have something similar in their setup guidance, although you angle the speakers until the reflection from the torch (held under your chin) comes back off the inner third of the panel rather than the centre. For me, that method results in only the very slightest of toe-ins, and at the moment I'm playing around with having them angled straight ahead instead (and then I'll go crazy and toe them in dramatically, maybe even cross them over in front of the listening position just to see what effect it has)
 

Jules_S

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My Quad ESL 57 are on stands raising them about 18 inches off the floor I also have sprung aero dampers under each foot and the ones on the rear are higher than those on the front . Overall this makes the panels almost upright and pointing straight not as they were designed which was to pint at the ceiling and bounce the sound . Result is huge improvement in imaging and width and it takes away the turn your head and the image collapses problem many quote with this speaker . I would certainly suggest that if you can do a progressive lift off the floor with adjustable feet you should be able to get the same effect when you are sitting comfortably in your normal seated position as you get be bending forward . Once you have the required height dialed in then you can look for some long term solutions that could offer you some vibration resistance as well . Gaia feet come to mind but they are quite expensive but there are lots of cheaper alternatives .
I've not tried raising them yet. TBH given the height of the panels I don't know if that would make so much difference as perhaps with the 57s with their lower stance. I think Gaia feet are definitely on the cards once I'm happy with the position - my home-brew experiment on my previous speakers told me how much difference isolation can make and the Gaias have a good reputation.
 

MickyP

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I found a less laid back position made them fatiguing, although detailed etc. I think ML suggest canting back solidifies the soundstage. Guess it allows some fine tuning to match with the amp's characteristics.

I have some fine strips of wood which I can place under front/back etc to experiment, without the hassle of undoing spikes etc.
 

Minicoupeman

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This is not confined to panel speakers. Experiment. Move your chair a foot nearer the speakers And/or raise the speakers a few inches, or drop them. I like tweeters level with my (sitting) ears, but your preference may be different. All changes should produce very definite SQ change.
 

hearhere

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I bought a pair of ML Expression 13As a couple of years ago. These have similar dimensions to the Summits.

I agree absolutely that they sound better when the tilt is reduced quite considerably. One wonders why they still build in this 5 degree backwards slope on their 11A and !3A when the 15A has vertical panels. I lifted the back such that the slope was reduced to about 2 degrees.

The "flashlight" test that guides users regarding toe-in can equally be used for tilt. The reflection should be no less than 1/3 up from the bottom of the panel. This will vary with seating height and distance from the speakers, but I guess most people will find a slope of between 1 and 3 degrees will match this suggestion and will sound much better. In fact I found slightly more than 1/3 (but not as much as 1/2) is best for both toe-in and tilt.

Incidentally, I also found a big improvement if the spikes are replaced with feet such as IsoAcoustic Gaia IIs. That's with timber boards on concrete flooring. If you have 11A or 13A (not sure about Summits, etc), you'll find a problem fitting Gaias as the threaded connectors supplied by IsoAcoustic will be too short to reach the 3/8" thread as this thread is set well into the hole, as the hole doubles as a hex socket for removing the amp unit. Easy solution - since I raised this with IsoAcoustic, they can now supply longer threaded bolts that will reach the 3/8" socket - even if tilted forward.

Sadly the ML speakers fell short of expectations in my difficult room (even after these careful setting up tests and the importer running the Anthem Room Correction DSP), so I had to sell them after a few months. Peter
 
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hifinutt

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sorry to hear about the logans . I have been incredibly pleased with the tannoy eaton legacy which came 2 years after i sold my logans . of course not such a BIG sound but still BIG soundstage and amazing imaging
 

Jules_S

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Did not know the 15A were vertical already, that's an interesting variation in the range. I can understand how some would find the more brightly-lit and forward sound of the speakers tilted forward to be a bit much, but for my somewhat dodgy hearing I crave the additional sparkle and clarity that this brings to the party.

Interestingly, the conversation so far (and I'm grateful for the input, by the way) has all been about speaker positioning, and not head positioning. So is it really just me that finds such a significant change when looking up or looking down?
 

hearhere

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Interestingly, the conversation so far (and I'm grateful for the input, by the way) has all been about speaker positioning, and not head positioning. So is it really just me that finds such a significant change when looking up or looking down?
I think one's listening position, or at least height is governed more by the chair you use for your listening. A bar stool listening chair may be best with the speakers tilted back the 5 degrees that they are, but a sofa for example really requires the speaker (not just MLs) to be pointing more towards one's face. I don't favour bar stools so I found the reduced tilt significantly improved sound quality.

PS - My disappointment with the Expression 13As was 100% down to my particular room, where my existing 17 year old Avantgarde speakers sounded far better. In the showroom and in reviews, the 13As sounded great. In my room there is no wall behind the speakers to salvage some of the backwards-firing sound. The nearest surface is a curved floor-to-ceiling window that is about 12 ft behind one speaker and 18 ft behind the other! No problem for horns, but disastrous for electrostatics. Peter
 
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Nopiano

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ML have something similar in their setup guidance, although you angle the speakers until the reflection from the torch (held under your chin) comes back off the inner third of the panel rather than the centre. For me, that method results in only the very slightest of toe-ins, and at the moment I'm playing around with having them angled straight ahead instead (and then I'll go crazy and toe them in dramatically, maybe even cross them over in front of the listening position just to see what effect it has)
I certainly tried many positions, including some suggested in the manual about a third of the way down the room. They’d not have lived there, but it was worth trying. It was the best I got, but not close enough to be keepers. Here’s a picture from back then that gives a pretty good idea of the extremes.
85FD732A-BF4D-465D-8F99-40753CEE945E.jpeg
 

Ady

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I find that if I sit in my normal listening position in-between the speakers and equidistant from each ie the triangle and look down or up instead of straight ahead at the soundstage then it doesn't seem right. My brain needs to see the soundstage as well as hear it to complete the illusion fully.
Cheers Ady
 

bencat

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If you have to bend your head to get better stand then the speakers need lifting. The idea all the time is to get the treble panel pointing straight at you as this is the most directional part of the sound . Get the speakers up and get them flush see if it works . If it does then think about what you need to do long term to get that set up .
 
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