Angle of the dangle

[FizzyPickles]

Recently purchased this cart from Berlin. It's quite nice sounding but a bit temperamental & fussy I think. In particular, it exaggerates sibilance on specific tracks I know very well. In order to try and mitigate it, I've zeroed and rebalanced the tonearm, reset the tracking force and anti-skate.
Dropping it onto a piece of vinyl I like to use to test it and I'm sure it looked a bit skewed. Aside from my grunting, what is going on here? Hopefully you can see what I am observing from this bit of V. high tech video.
Is it a damaged stylus?

View attachment VID_20220522_133551.mp4

 

[bigfool1956]

That is the effect of the anti-skate. When there's no spinning record to counteract it, then you get an outward force. However that looks quite extreme which implies the anti-skate (a.k.a. bias) is higher than it should be.

 

[FizzyPickles]

That is the effect of the anti-skate. When there's no spinning record to counteract it, then you get an outward force. However that looks quite extreme which implies the anti-skate (a.k.a. bias) is higher than it should be.

I've actually dialled the anti-skate back slightly. Trouble is, a bit of added weight seems to calm the sibilance down a bit. I guess I should observe it on spinning vinyl... or just buy a bloody streamer and DAC lol.

 

[Lurch]

Once vta is set so arm/cart is level, and you've put vtf back to normal range try setting the cart slightly arse down which will have same effect as excess vtf (will lay stylus back) then set bias to around 30% of vtf.
Another possibility is is the capacitance is wrong in which case this can be increased using a pair of rca splitters and rca plugs with additional capacitance loading.

Splitter & loading plugs for an A&R P77mg (nedds 3-400pf) on my Rega 3 in 2nd system.

 

[FizzyPickles]

Once vta is set so arm/cart is level, and you've put vtf back to normal range try setting the cart slightly arse down which will have same effect as excess vtf (will lay stylus back) then set bias to around 30% of vtf.
Another possibility is is the capacitance is wrong in which case this can be increased using a pair of rca splitters and rca plugs with additional capacitance loading.

Splitter & loading plugs for an A&R P77mg (nedds 3-400pf) on my Rega 3 in 2nd system.

I can't find the "arse down" setting in my manual but I think like a lucky blind man in a blizzard, I have already stumbled upon your first suggestion.
The whole capacitance scenario will involve a bit of education first for me but thx. I'm reasonably sure it is unlikely as this particular cart is actually matched with this TT by the maker.

 

[TIU]

Is it a new cart?

 

[tackleberry]

You got a test record with a groovless track?

 

[FizzyPickles]

Is it a new car

Is it a new cart?

Yeah

 

[FizzyPickles]

You got a test record with a groovless track?

No, but I got some really groovy ones.

 

[mac72]

The whole capacitance scenario will involve a bit of education first for me but thx. I'm reasonably sure it is unlikely as this particular cart is actually matched with this TT by the maker.

Nagaoka MP110 has quite high inductance - above 800mH so you need tonearm cable with a very low capacitance also the capacitance setting on your phono stage if adjustable need to be set to minimum . With a usual 100pF setting on the phono stage and tonearm cable 100pF you would get resonant peak bit above 10kHz , keep tonearm cable short , use one with low capacitance - this one for example is really good but not cheap:
https://www.shop.back-promo.co.uk/Silvercord/p4417238_16800086.aspx

 

[Lawrence001]

I'm struggling to see what you are dropping the stylus on to, in particular its height relative to where a record would be.

Can you elaborate on TT/arm/headshell models as you discussed a Fluance and changing the headshell before? Also did it come with the Nagaoka or have you changed the cart from the stock which was presumably set up (although things can need fine-tuning on arrival).

 

[mac72]

Does it look the same when you drop stylus on the record when in motion , there is always a bit of side movement when dropping on stationary record - in your case it looks a little too much though.
Can you take another video with anti-skate disengaged completely.
Best way to check if cantilever was skewed would be to take cartridge of the tonearm and take photo , cantilever should be parallel to cartridge body .

 

[FizzyPickles]

I'm struggling to see what you are dropping the stylus on to, in particular its height relative to where a record would be.

Can you elaborate on TT/arm/headshell models as you discussed a Fluance and changing the headshell before? Also did it come with the Nagaoka or have you changed the cart from the stock which was presumably set up (although things can need fine-tuning on arrival).

It is indeed the Fluance Lawrence, in my case the RT-83 which comes with an Ortofon Red Cart. I fancied trying the Nagaoka MP 110 after reading/listening to various reviews. Fluance now actually offer the same TT ( RT-85N) with this very cart installed.
Since starting this thread I have re-balanced the tone arm, set the cart forward on the headshell slightly and re-aligned it.
If I increase the tracking force from 1.8 to 2 and reduce the bias to 1.2 from 1.8 the sibilance is reduced but remains.
The skewed cantilever has diminished greatly though which I think is good news.
In the video I am dropping it onto a cleaning gel pad which is ever so slightly higher than a Vinyl.

 

[FizzyPickles]

Does it look the same when you drop stylus on the record when in motion , there is always a bit of side movement when dropping on stationary record - in your case it looks a little too much though.
Can you take another video with anti-skate disengaged completely.
Best way to check if cantilever was skewed would be to take cartridge of the tonearm and take photo , cantilever should be parallel to cartridge body .

It didn't look so bad on a moving vinyl and when the anti-skate is on zero it is virtually non-existent even when stationary. I understand that some TT/Tonearms have slight bias built-in even with Anti-Skate disengaged?
I've since looked at everything you have suggested and I am reasonably confidant that the stylus/cart is sound.

 

[FizzyPickles]

You got a test record with a groovless track?

Can you suggest recommended test records?

 

[FizzyPickles]

I'm reasonably confident that the cart is not damaged. I think perhaps the Fluance recommended tracking force & anti-skate should be taken with a pinch of salt and perhaps my alignment skills need a little honing.
I'm still surprised that the Nagaoka exhibits sibilance where the Ortofon does not though. I would have bet money on it being the other way around.
For anyone that is interested, the sibilance occurs when playing a favourite song of mine going way back by a Band called Planxty. It is the last track on their Album by the same name - West coast of Clare.

 

[mac72]

It didn't look so bad on a moving vinyl and when the anti-skate is on zero it is virtually non-existent even when stationary. I understand that some TT/Tonearms have slight bias built-in even with Anti-Skate disengaged?
I've since looked at everything you have suggested and I am reasonably confidant that the stylus/cart is sound.

MP110 is a really nice cartridge but could be a bit sibilant at times especially if loaded with too much capacitance, look into the cable I posted link , shortest length possible . On the last tracks of the record you might also experience a bit of IMD , playing with anti skate should help but I wouldn’t use test record to set it as most of them have heavy modulated tracks and you most likely would overcompensate, start with half of the value of tracking force.
If cartridge is new keep tracking at the top of recommended range ,
Resonance peak could be smoothed with a different resistive loading but I need my laptop to simulate it in Spice , I’m home over the weekend and I have a look if you could do anything about that .

 

[tackleberry]

also got a good symbol track for picking out bad setup

 

[Lawrence001]

Have you got a local Wammer who can have a look for you? Should be able to sort it in a few minutes with the right tools.

 

[FizzyPickles]

Have you got a local Wammer who can have a look for you? Should be able to sort it in a few minutes with the right tools.

I've no idea Lawrence, I'm in the heart of rural Herefordshire.
To be quite honest, I don't think I actually have an issue to be sorted. Initially I was surprised that this cart seemed to exaggerate what is quite a sibilant prone recording tbh, it literally hasn't displayed any sibilance in anything else I've thrown at it and to be fair to the cart, it probably needs another 20-30 hours play to feel at home. I'm also driving it all through some Monitor Audio Bronze 50's which are pretty bright and analytical.
What really freaked me out was the lurch of the cantilever. Since rebalancing the tonearm, setting the cart forward in the headshell and realigning it actually looks far more perpendicular.
I think perhaps I am going through the process of re-learning the nature of enjoying Vinyl after a hiatus of nearly 30 years and am finding the characteristics and limitations of my chosen components.
The input here has been a real help.