AT cartridges top end biased?

trumpetman

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I'm having fun with my Lenco project. I went for AT vm95 cartridges to get it up and running, mainly because of cost and their good reputation.
I'm using a Silvernote arm and a Jelco 250ST, swapping them in and out when I'm tweaking or trying something out.
When I put the deck in my main system I am generally pleased that such an old thing can be coached back into life and sound ok.
The thing is I think there's more to be had, the sound is excellent in the top end but low end mids and bass could be much better, tighter and more oomph IMO.
So, should I consider another cartridge not based on the AT generator?
If so any suggestions?
Thanks as always......heating clicked on today, omg better dig out the thermals!!!!
 
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oldius

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My personal view is that they are clean, clear and transparent, not emphasising any part of the spectrum. There is nothing wrong with preferring a fuller sound than they may offer though, so another brand may suit your system/ears more.
 
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MotherSky

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I'm not familiar with the latest generation of AT carts, but assuming that they haven't diverged significantly from their "house sound", then I am very surprised by your comments - I used to run an AT150mlx, and its full and driving bass was very much a selling point for me, and I found no emphasis of the upper frequencies - perhaps someone more knowledgeable than me might be able to suggest some other variables that might be at play here?
 
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DomT

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Did you try another cartridge by comparison? I ask because it may be a shortcoming if the Lenco. Can you post a photo and let us know about any customisation. There should be bass with the Lenco but the tightness and transparency will depend on the build. (I have owned a modest custom Lenco and a high end custom Lenco)
 
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rabski

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There are so many factors at play that it's always difficult to comment. Anything in the chain could have an influence, but even though it's a relatively very cheap cartyridge, the AT95 is normally not particularly bass shy. At the moment, I have one on my second turntable, which is a pretty standard GL75 with a Linn arm and there is no 'top endiness' on it, though that is with the EN stylus.

First and foremost, look at/check the capacitive loading on the phono stage. If it's adjustable, try changing the settings as this can have a notable effect. Obviously also check all the alignments, in particular the VTA, as again this can shift the emphasis of the frequency range.

I've used ATs for some time now, though I've had things from Van den Hul, Ortofon, Transfiguration and Dynavector, among countless others. To my ears (and certainly most of the MC versions), the ATs have a reasonably even-handed response. There's no lack of bass here.
 

trumpetman

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Thanks for replies so far
@DomT photo coming in about an hour, just a heavyish plinth, achromat and rubber mat ( to get vta in the adjustable range). Only cartridge I have is a shure 44 which has seen better days, and can't really be considered, it sounded sh1te
@rabski , will run through a complete alignment check. I have a Rega Aria Phono stage, the MC side is adjustable but the MM isn't from what I can make out. Will report back.......
Cheers
 

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unclefz

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Hi,

AT VM95 cartridges require a total capacitance load of 100-200pF.

This is quite a low value and most 'fixed' capacitance phono stages have too high a value even before the cabling is taken into account. However the manual states the Aria mk 3 as 100pF.

https://www.rega.co.uk/download/aria-mk-3-manual-2020.pdf

The above total value includes the tonearm wires, tonearm cable and the phono stage added together. (Plus headshell wires if a detachable headshell is used - but not in your case on that tonearm).
Too much capacitance with these cartridges leads to them becoming 'bright'.
This 'brightness', that is generally unliked, leads to some people writing off these AT's as rubbish which they certainly are not.

Therefore I would suspect the tonearm / tonearm cabling capacitance is maybe too high?

Hope this helps.
 
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Rockchild

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I'm having fun with my Lenco project. I went for AT vm95 cartridges to get it up and running, mainly because of cost and their good reputation.
I'm using a Silvernote arm and a Jelco 250ST, swapping them in and out when I'm tweaking or trying something out.
When I put the deck in my main system I am generally pleased that such an old thing can be coached back into life and sound ok.
The thing is I think there's more to be had, the sound is excellent in the top end but low end mids and bass could be much better, tighter and more oomph IMO.
So, should I consider another cartridge not based on the AT generator?
If so any suggestions?
Thanks as always......heating clicked on today, omg better dig out the thermals!!!!
Did you get the ML version in the end?
As mentioned above, play with the VTA, it makes a noticeable difference to bass performance and knowing we share the same arm on our decks, give it a go. I found adjusting the tracking weight to 2.1g was also a benefit.
Tucked away for many years, I had an OL Cartridge enabler and I have put this on the Silver note and AT and bass has firmed up even more. I don’t know why I hadn’t tried it before! Great little upgrade for £20 odd.
 
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Lurch

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Once you've finished tweaking the cart setup and cart/arm are running dead level, if it's still a bit toppy for you with poor/ill-defined bass. Try running the cart slightly tail down, this will bring the bass up a bit. For 9" - 9.5" arms, dropping the pillar height by 1mm changes the stylus rake angle by 0.3°, so max you'd have 5mm to play with before the sound becomes a bit dead and bloated.
 

oldius

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How is this helpful?
The OP asked if he should consider an alternative to AT, so sought opinion on AT generally. I have an OC9ii as backup and don't find it toppy at all, nevertheless, that's my ears.
 
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trumpetman

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Hi,

AT VM95 cartridges require a total capacitance load of 100-200pF.

This is quite a low value and most 'fixed' capacitance phono stages have too high a value even before the cabling is taken into account. However the manual states the Aria mk 3 as 100pF.

https://www.rega.co.uk/download/aria-mk-3-manual-2020.pdf

The above total value includes the tonearm wires, tonearm cable and the phono stage added together. (Plus headshell wires if a detachable headshell is used - but not in your case on that tonearm).
Too much capacitance with these cartridges leads to them becoming 'bright'.
This 'brightness', that is generally unliked, leads to some people writing off these AT's as rubbish which they certainly are not.

Therefore I would suspect the tonearm / tonearm cabling capacitance is maybe too high?

Hope this helps.
@unclefz - certainly does help, I going to rummage through my drawers (oh err!) and try some cables. I do like the cartridge and with the support on here I think it is going to sing some more

Is there a way I can measure capacitance easily ( for an aged trumpeter that is!) to see what the score is?
 
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trumpetman

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Did you get the ML version in the end?
As mentioned above, play with the VTA, it makes a noticeable difference to bass performance and knowing we share the same arm on our decks, give it a go. I found adjusting the tracking weight to 2.1g was also a benefit.
Tucked away for many years, I had an OL Cartridge enabler and I have put this on the Silver note and AT and bass has firmed up even more. I don’t know why I hadn’t tried it before! Great little upgrade for £20 odd.
If I can get the VM singing then I'll go for the ML next offer. TBH I had two gigs with the Big Bands and had it in my "urgent to do list" but old aged brain kicked in......
Thanks for the tip on tracking weight.
I've checked alignment and made some small adjustments - VTA slightly out, pointing downwards, probably caused when tightening up grub screws on arm pillar and not checking afterwards
 
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Rockchild

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The OP asked if he should consider an alternative to AT, so sought opinion on AT generally. I have an OC9ii as backup and don't find it toppy at all, nevertheless, that's my ears.
This is all confusing, I was replying to Tuga and you answered with the same findings as me yet Tuga ‘liked’ your comment which makes it even more of a pointless comment of his 😂
 

unclefz

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@unclefz - certainly does help, I going to rummage through my drawers (oh err!) and try some cables. I do like the cartridge and with the support on here I think it is going to sing some more

Is there a way I can measure capacitance easily ( for an aged trumpeter that is!) to see what the score is?
There are multimeters that measure capacitance but I have not tried this myself and by at least some accounts this method is not particularly accurate. Others on here might be able to advise you better with this aspect?

If you know the phono cable maker or the cable that is used for it then it may well be possible to find out the value in use in the cable though.

Alternatively, are you able to beg borrow or steal (well maybe not the last one) a different phono stage to try different capacitance values of a phono stage out? This might then give an idea if excessive capacitance is the culprit? Or indeed another phono cable?

Nothing like the quality of your Aria but I have one of these cheap phono boards built into an enclosure (not by me though) which allowed me to try different values easily set via dip switches.

https://www.diyaudio.com/archive/blogs/rjm/attachments/1613d1427632536-ive-been-cloned-310.pdf

I am not presently using it and you are not 1 million miles away from me I would think should you wish to try it?

There are other issues with this board apart from it being cheap and opamp based such as the limited settings for gain - 40db would have been better.

You would also need another set of rca interconnects to go from it to your amp unless you used the ones presently doing this job connecting the Aria to your amp.

Good luck with finding another phono cable from your 'stash of bits' first though.
 

andreweast

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I've used AT carts from cheap (AT95E) to posh (AT50ANV - really superb but hard to get the best from). I'm currently using an AT33SA and it's exceptionally neutral and well balanced. I can't fault it, except it was my first Shibata and getting VTA perfect took forever.
 

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