AT VM540ML - cloth ears or was I expecting too much?

[daccordimark]

Hi,
I've been bedding in the used VM540ML I bought on here and comparing it to my Ortofon 2M Blue. I don't know how many hours the AT had on it before I bought it but it's got about 10 more now.
After reading so many glowing reviews of the AT I was expecting to hear quite a difference between the two but in all honesty (so far) there isn't much.
One noticeable and disappointing difference is in the bass. Chris Rea's Daytona track has a bass line that rumbles away in the background (on my kit) and with the Ortofon this sounds reasonably well defined. However, the AT seems to lose the definition of the notes, there's no leading edge to them (I think that's the HiFi reviewer term for it!). Other tracks with strong bass lines also seem a little softer with the AT.

The mids and treble seem pretty much the same so I'm struggling to see an upside to the AT right now. Does anyone have direct experience of these two cartridges? Maybe I'm missing something or maybe the differences are subtle at best? Or maybe my ears or other equipment just aren't good enough to show the differences!

I'm running them both through the internal phono stage on my SL1500C so could that be less than ideal loading wise? If it is, would a stage with a lower capacitance tighten up the bass or just tilt the frequency response down at the top end?

For the AT I've got the VTF at 2g and the anti-skate also at 2 to match. For both carts I have the arm parallel to the record when playing. One difference between them is that the Ortofon is mounted in the original Technics headshell whereas the AT is in an AT HS10, which AT use if you buy the cart pre-mounted in a headshell.

The rest of my kit is Audiolab 8000Q pre-amp > 2 x Cyrus XPA power amps bi-amping > Mission 752 Freedom speakers but that's pretty much irrelevant in the context of comparing cartridges isn't it?

Yours underwhelmed 🥱 ,
Mark.

 

[MVJ]

When you bought the AT cart what kind of hours were stated as it sounds to me like it's worn.

I have an AT-VM750sh with a hundred ish hours & the bass is superb and holds it's own against my AT-ART9xi almost.

I have a standard headshell sitting in a draw doing nothing if you want a loan of it so you can compare the two carts like for like let me know.

Steve.

 

[lazycat]

It could be any of the things suggested. As it's not new it should be bedded-in. The capacitance in the Technics may be an issue.

You could try lowering the anti-skate to about 1.5, maybe a bit lower, and work up - lifting the arm before the change.

My experience - although they were older decks - with Technics arms led me to use about 70% skating of the VTF.

I'm sure the AT headshell is more than adequate to the job. And, of course, the stylus may be knackered.

Crack on.

ps. Is the stylus clean? Do you have a decent cleaner? Is the distance between the h/shell end and stylus tip correct? Lots to think about(and edit.lol).

 

[llatpoh]

I've played with both cartridges and the VM540ML easily wins all across the board. Check the cantilever to be perfectly straight, those are very thin and delicate and SQ will be severely affected if even slightly bent, it's happened to me.

 

[rabski]

Wind back the anti-skate a bit. More than anything though, look at the VTA. Poorly defined and lacking bass is a classic sign of VTA being off.

The 540ML should easily outperform a Blue right across the frequency range. Not massively so, but more than enough to make a difference. If it doesn't, something is wrong.

 

[Rockchild]

What @rabski said. Technics and AT go hand in hand.

 

[lazycat]

More than anything though, look at the VTA. Poorly defined and lacking bass is a classic sign of VTA being off.

Had a look online and the arm is adjustable. The 2M's are quite deep. Another fettle for the OP.

 

[daccordimark]

Thanks for all the advice - I will be experimenting with VTA to start with and take it from there.

 

[bigrod]

The AT has a much longer cantilever with a slightly greater vertical tracking angle and it’s mass is about 10% less than the 2M . so the arm set up could be quite different to what you are used to .. That can always be a problem between judging different manufacturers if you don’t get it just right .. it’s all about patience until then

 

[Phil Bishop]

Just noticed this thread and I'm pretty sure you bought it from me Mark?

It had almost no use, 2 or 3 hours max, I just mounted it to test it and that was it. So, it may need some breaking in.

The only reason I sold it was I'm literally getting rid of almost all my surplus gear and I have the ATVM95ML on my Systemdek and that is all I need. My 95ML has many many hours on it and it still sounds brilliant.

I have owned the Ortofon Red, Blue and Bronze. Here's something controversial - never liked any of them that much. The Red was harsh with dreadful IGD, the Blue was too bright and the Bronze was just a bit dull for the money. The AT range, particularly the ML's, sound way better to my ears, particularly regarding IGD which they all but eliminate.

Not sure what the issue could be, maybe synergy, capacitance, break in?

P.S. I use "Daytona" as a test track too

 

[daccordimark]

Just noticed this thread and I'm pretty sure you bought it from me Mark?

It had almost no use, 2 or 3 hours max, I just mounted it to test it and that was it. So, it may need some breaking in.

The only reason I sold it was I'm literally getting rid of almost all my surplus gear and I have the ATVM95ML on my Systemdek and that is all I need. My 95ML has many many hours on it and it still sounds brilliant.

I have owned the Ortofon Red, Blue and Bronze. Here's something controversial - never liked any of them that much. The Red was harsh with dreadful IGD, the Blue was too bright and the Bronze was just a bit dull for the money. The AT range, particularly the ML's, sound way better to my ears, particularly regarding IGD which they all but eliminate.

Not sure what the issue could be, maybe synergy, capacitance, break in?

P.S. I use "Daytona" as a test track too

Hi Phil,
Yes, I did buy the AT from you, thanks for the update on the hours, that helps a lot. I hadn't realised or I had forgotten it was not even run in. So, as Julian (bigrod) said above, some patience as well as tweakery is required.
Cheers,
Mark.

 

[MVJ]

My AT-VM750sh took about 40 hrs to sound decent & now with a hundred + hrs it is sounding superb with it sounding better & better as I have used it.

It sounds like you have a way to go before making a judgement on which is best.

Patience my Padawan learner😛

 

[Phil Bishop]

Hi Phil,
Yes, I did buy the AT from you, thanks for the update on the hours, that helps a lot. I hadn't realised or I had forgotten it was not even run in. So, as Julian (bigrod) said above, some patience as well as tweakery is required.
Cheers,
Mark.

Hi Mark,

Yes, I can't remember how long my AT-VM95ML took to break in but I have probably been using it for longer than any other cartridge I have owned and it still sounds excellent. I think micro-linear styli last a long time.

Don't also forget personal taste. Like I said earlier, I never really bonded with the Ortofon 2M series but I know lots of folk love them. I also think there's an aspect of getting used to a house sound, if you like. The biggest win though with my ATVM95ML was how it all but eliminates IGD, something that always bugged me but now I'm all but free of

Good luck!

 

[unclefz]

Hi Phil,
Yes, I did buy the AT from you, thanks for the update on the hours, that helps a lot. I hadn't realised or I had forgotten it was not even run in. So, as Julian (bigrod) said above, some patience as well as tweakery is required.
Cheers,
Mark.

I suspect that you may have a capacitance issue if you are using the onboard phono stage of the SL1500c.
These tables are setup around the Ortofon 2m Red which has a higher capacitance value than the AT's which like low capacitance.
Ortofon 2M red - recommended 150 -300 pF
AT VM540ml - recommended 100 - 200pF

This thread states the specs for the internal stage (I have seen it repeated elsewhere too)

https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/thre...-vs-new-sl-1500c.1055360/page-5#post-26234945

Yes it does say 56kohm! but also 390pF.

Are you able to try it with an external phono stage with a lower capacitance and preferably adjustable capacitance?
A total pF of 100-150pF including cables and tomearm wiring would be worth trying if you are able.

 

[Idlewithnodrive]

I never really bonded with the Ortofon 2M series

Exactly this. I've owned all, from the Red to the Black and didn't get on with any of them. I guess I just don't like the house sound.

 

[lazycat]

Exactly this. I've owned all, from the Red to the Black and didn't get on with any of them. I guess I just don't like the house sound.

There's definitely a house sound to cartridges despite what the manufacturers may say.
I love the 2M's but also like AT MM's as well.
AT MC's on the other hand....