Audibility of MP3

George 47

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Following on from discussions about Spotify and Quobuz streaming music I have finally managed to get Spotify working with the Linn DS using Songcast. And I have to be honest and say I quite like Spotify and the selection of music with some big names recently added (Floyd, Led Zepplin). Hell they even have Happy Rhodes!!

Onto this scene has come Quobuz offering full fat CD quality 16/44.1 streaming, but at over double the cost with a limited music selection. Anyway I only use it as an introduction to new music and for that it is good. But how much of a hinderance is the MP3 (even at 320 kps)?

Whilst looking at what was around I came across this article from Sound on Sound which tackled the subject. The author has included audio files which illustrate the negative effects well. They are exaggerated by using low sampling rates but give a good idea of the various artefacts.

The article is not new but some may find it of interest.

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/apr12/articles/lost-in-translation.htm

 
C

chris217

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My understanding is that 320 kbps MP3 or similar lossy compression (Spotify uses Ogg Vorbis) is audibly indistinguishable from lossless. At 192 kbps most people would not hear any difference. 128 kbps has audible artefacts that a critical listener is likely to find objectionable.

Funnily enough I had just set up the same track in FLAC from local storage and on Spotify to compare them. (Ian Bostridge singing Die Forelle by Schubert because AIUI both male voice and piano are especially difficult to reproduce well.) I am hard pushed to hear any difference with a non-blind AB test, both on speakers and Stax headphones. There does appear to be a very slight harshness on transients with the lossy version, but this could very well be my expectation bias given the uncontrolled nature of the test.

 

meninblack

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We did a blind test on the Wam, using CDs burned from FLAC, wav and 320 kbps mp3.

Out of 10 listeners, 2 could distinguish mp3 from the other formats with statistical significance - in fact they both scored 10/10. The other 8 couldn't.

Both had systems costing >£10k.

 

eastsoutheast

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I have compared Spotify premium VS the same track/album on CD and the difference is negligible (and that's using a good transport and DAC).

I think its a great service with more than acceptable SQ.

 

anonymoustao

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Without getting into the MP3/lossless/44.1 discussion, I'd say the greatest thing about Spotify and MOG is that they have greatly reduced the number of albums I buy that I'd never want to hear more than once. Now, I only buy the keepers and end up with less dross.

 

mmar

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I have compared Spotify premium VS the same track/album on CD and the difference is negligible (and that's using a good transport and DAC).I think its a great service with more than acceptable SQ.
Agree had similar results and as a result I've stopped comparing and just listen to spotify

 

NAM

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Agree had similar results and as a result I've stopped comparing and just listen to spotify
Likewise.

I thought the article was interesting but a bit annoying they don't show a high bit-rate example for each case, for e.g. 320kbps mp3

 

68rednose

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I only play CD if I want to sit and listen to music (too lazy to rip).

But I just am amazed that I really can enjoy a 128 kbps internet station (Radio Swiss Jazz) while surfing the internet, without getting annoyed over SQ.

 

yoda900

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My daughter played some tunes from her iphone over my main system through the pre with a wired connection. Only one (James Blake) of several selections was listenable. The rest were excruciatingly awful.

Playing through the Denon all in one in the kitchen they were OK. Clearer/wider open window (insert appropriate analogy) shows the s**t quality that most young uns accept as "normal"

Spotify is great for finding new music so it defo has a useful place. Usually in the kitchen run from SWMBO laptop with her favourite playlist.

 

gjm

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If the original recording is good, the differences between mp3s and lossless tend to ime be more pronounced. Poor quality recordings aren't as susceptible to this, but it is easy to understand why. Of course, we are talking about the quality of the recording and not the music.

I don't know the value of my system, but I can tell the difference between 320kbps and lossless - all my rips are flac. If listening carefully I can tell, but even with non-critical listening I find poorer recording simply result in a sense of dissatisfaction and that I am missing out on something.

 

RobHolt

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320k lossy should give results so close to lossless that it isn't an issue regardless of system quality - most of the time. You can create a listening test which includes material to specifically challenge lossy encoding, and you can train yourself to detect differences in such situations but in normal use high bitrate lossy and lossless are too close to call. This what nearly all blind studies have shown, and I've 'tested' a fair few people myself.

The real problem is ensuring that the lossy and lossless files are taken from the same master and that neither has received any additional processing.

This is where services like Spotify can fall short - they sometimes use decidedly sub standard files IME.

Another potential concern is the tendency to push everything to the buffers and master to 0dB.

Push that through a lossy encoder and you get clipping effects since the encoders need a few dB headroom.

If you ever hear clicking sounds on MP3, thats likely the cause and it's surprisingly common. Something to consider if you routinely rip hot CDs and hear a difference.

 

eastsoutheast

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My daughter played some tunes from her iphone over my main system through the pre with a wired connection. Only one (James Blake) of several selections was listenable. The rest were excruciatingly awful.Playing through the Denon all in one in the kitchen they were OK. Clearer/wider open window (insert appropriate analogy) shows the s**t quality that most young uns accept as "normal"

Spotify is great for finding new music so it defo has a useful place. Usually in the kitchen run from SWMBO laptop with her favourite playlist.
I don't think you can compare the SQ from an iPhone connected by a cable to Spotify premium. I am pretty sure you will be using the iPhones DAC and headphone output which would offer poorer quality. Myself and my son have decent systems with quality transports and DAC's and both find the SQ from Spotify almost as good all the time and as good a lot of the time (and we must own over 3000 CD's).

Agree "young uns" accepting poor quality, my youngest loves his Dr Dre headphones and despite me buying him a decent system he uses these or his gaming headphones 99% of the time.

 

It Cost How Much!?!

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Can I just say, streaming is crap and MP3 especially crap even at 320. Yes I do know the difference between MP3 and CD and between CD and LP.

It doesn't matter how it's done, I still hate it, no soul, no musical feeling just processed sound.

 

iquadius

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Can I just say, streaming is crap and MP3 especially crap even at 320. Yes I do know the difference between MP3 and CD and between CD and LP.It doesn't matter how it's done, I still hate it, no soul, no musical feeling just processed sound.
Of course, Its a free country ....... you just forgot to add IMHO

for me .... I use spotify ( 300kb/s) and I have an extensive ripped library (99% wav 1%flac), and other lesser used sources .... regardless of 'file type' I am 100% convinced it matters more how the thing is recorded/mastered than how it is 'streamed' or prepared for streaming ...... IMHO .... it can all sound sublime. M

 

browellm

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I haven't read through the whole article yet, but I will, it looks interesting :^

However, one observation: using low bit rate mp3 as an example is somewhat unfair. mp3 is one of the oldest codecs around, and is well known for being particularly poor at low bit-rates like 32, 64 and even 128k. Certainly compared to Vorbis and AAC which are better optimised at these levels.

 

George 47

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I have not looked at this issue in detail but thought the article was good as it was a practioner relaying what he heard. I accept that he used low bit rates but he was trying to illustrate what was happening and not everyone has a high res system.

In audio, I sometimes find I do not like what I hear but can't easily explain it. Articles like this are helpful in articulating what is going on and give a common point of reference.

I had a friend who got into computer audio and ripped CDs as MP3s. We did a quick demo of a 16/44.1 rip and a 320kps VBR rip. Using his system it was not easy to tell them apart but once heard and explained it stood out. We even tried to do the test blind but once we heard the difference it became obvious. Despite that he tried a little test by inserting an MP3 320 kps into the music and both of us spotted it. He now rips at the full rate for that reason and also because hard drives are cheap and there is no reason to throw anything away.

I found Spotify at 128kps flat and a little boring but as I am only using it for music selection that is not a problem. I suppose I could try a months trial at 320kps and see what the difference is.

 

themadlatvian

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I have not looked at this issue in detail but thought the article was good as it was a practioner relaying what he heard. I accept that he used low bit rates but he was trying to illustrate what was happening and not everyone has a high res system. In audio, I sometimes find I do not like what I hear but can't easily explain it. Articles like this are helpful in articulating what is going on and give a common point of reference.

I had a friend who got into computer audio and ripped CDs as MP3s. We did a quick demo of a 16/44.1 rip and a 320kps VBR rip. Using his system it was not easy to tell them apart but once heard and explained it stood out. We even tried to do the test blind but once we heard the difference it became obvious. Despite that he tried a little test by inserting an MP3 320 kps into the music and both of us spotted it. He now rips at the full rate for that reason and also because hard drives are cheap and there is no reason to throw anything away.

I found Spotify at 128kps flat and a little boring but as I am only using it for music selection that is not a problem. I suppose I could try a months trial at 320kps and see what the difference is.
George - when you say that your friend 'rips at full rate' do you mean that he produces raw wav files, or does he use a 'lossless' format like flac?

The main point I got from the article in the OP is that one can train the ear to recognise mp3s and other lossy files, whilst lossless will be much more difficult to spot. I can hear clear differences between mp3 and flac versions of the same recordings/masterings and I'm sure I am not alone.

A much more interesting question for me would be - can you tell the difference between raw data and so-called lossless? Now that might be worth investigating. At least one poster here more than hints that all streaming is poor compared with CD, and that CD is poor compared with LP. I'm not going to get into the old chestnut which is the latter, but whether lossless is indeed a good format or not would be of interest. (Surely high resolution streaming goes beyond CD quality any way, doesn't it?) :?

 

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