If bass isn't recorded then it won't be there. THe problem lies in trying to artificially boost the bass output in smaller speakers or in floorstanders with limited bass. This results in bass bloat which can sound impressive at first but quickly becomes weary.It depends on what the musicians are playing. A string quartet or acoustic guitar? Bass shouldn't be there if it wasn't recorded. Old analogue radios have a warm sound which give male voices extra bass that you wouldn't hear in real life. It's that extra bass that makes them appealing and cosy.
Aye, but the problem is knowing what's recorded!Bass shouldn't be there if it wasn't recorded.
Oh dear sorry to appear a Grumpy Old Man but I didn’t say that the Loudness control only applied only to CD. Of course it applied to all inputs - bass falls-off at low volumes regardless of source. I also didn’t say that this problem applies to all recordings, just a significant percentage – say 20% or so. But it is endemic – it’s a mind-set problem for recording engineers as Chesky points out, and an issue of the limitations of CD technology as SACD (which does not exhibit this problem) makes clear.Sine Nomine wrote:I dont think those loudness buttons were just for CD (did they not appear before CD), and I dont think the Chesky subject of many recordings means all recordings were like that.Sorry disagree! The goal of commercial CD production should be to create a sound that appears natural in the smaller spaces of the domestic environment. I know it’s not primarily the fault of my hifi (yes, there are unavoidable room colourations and of course equipment can always be improved), because I also have many wonderfully natural sounding CDs – and even more great sounding vinyl. Not a majority, but a significant percentage of CDs though are simply too bright to sound natural in a domestic setting.Also I couldn’t disagree more about volume. As you reduce the volume it’s the bass you loose not the treble! That was the reason for those ghastly ‘loudness’ controls on 80s Japanese amps that boosted the bass as volume was reduced.
There was a very interesting piece in Hi-Fi Choice last November by David Chesky owner of Chesky Records. As I’m sure you know a very well known and respected recording industry figure, having made some of the best audiophile recordings. Chesky forcibly said that many recordings sound artificial because they were made unnaturally bright to sound ‘more hifi’. That Chesky does not do this is one of the key reasons their recordings sound better.
Plenty of CD's, LP's and even cassettes sound superb, but there are a lot of poor bright sounding CD players out there, and systems which lack any real sense of weight or scale.
Most of these brightness problems would probably be cured with a decent size bass driver within a fuller range speaker system.( IE larger full range speakers and amps with a bit of grunt and ampage)
I think you make a lot of sense there mate.Sastusbulbas wrote:Oh dear sorry to appear a Grumpy Old Man but I didn’t say that the Loudness control only applied only to CD. Of course it applied to all inputs - bass falls-off at low volumes regardless of source. I also didn’t say that this problem applies to all recordings, just a significant percentage – say 20% or so. But it is endemic – it’s a mind-set problem for recording engineers as Chesky points out, and an issue of the limitations of CD technology as SACD (which does not exhibit this problem) makes clear.Sine Nomine wrote:I dont think those loudness buttons were just for CD (did they not appear before CD), and I dont think the Chesky subject of many recordings means all recordings were like that.Sorry disagree! The goal of commercial CD production should be to create a sound that appears natural in the smaller spaces of the domestic environment. I know it’s not primarily the fault of my hifi (yes, there are unavoidable room colourations and of course equipment can always be improved), because I also have many wonderfully natural sounding CDs – and even more great sounding vinyl. Not a majority, but a significant percentage of CDs though are simply too bright to sound natural in a domestic setting.Also I couldn’t disagree more about volume. As you reduce the volume it’s the bass you loose not the treble! That was the reason for those ghastly ‘loudness’ controls on 80s Japanese amps that boosted the bass as volume was reduced.
There was a very interesting piece in Hi-Fi Choice last November by David Chesky owner of Chesky Records. As I’m sure you know a very well known and respected recording industry figure, having made some of the best audiophile recordings. Chesky forcibly said that many recordings sound artificial because they were made unnaturally bright to sound ‘more hifi’. That Chesky does not do this is one of the key reasons their recordings sound better.
Plenty of CD's, LP's and even cassettes sound superb, but there are a lot of poor bright sounding CD players out there, and systems which lack any real sense of weight or scale.
Most of these brightness problems would probably be cured with a decent size bass driver within a fuller range speaker system.( IE larger full range speakers and amps with a bit of grunt and ampage)
I think by anyone’s standards my kit would be considered fairly high-end. It’s certainly capable of conveying significant bass weight when called for. Yes, cheapo kit can sound shrill and nasty, but that’s a separate issue. I think it’s generally accepted that as the resolution of equipment improves (through upgrading, tweaking, etc) so good recordings sound better and better, but bad recordings are more clearly exposed for what they are. Not all bad recordings are too bright, but I would suggest that it’s a fairly common component. End of rant.
As volume (or sound pressure level) reduces its frequencies below 1kHz and above 5kHz that become subjectively quieter relative to frequencies within the 1kHz to 5kHz band. This is because of the non-linear response of hearing; between 1kHz and 5kHz human hearing is most acute.As you reduce the volume it’s the bass you loose not the treble! That was the reason for those ghastly ‘loudness’ controls on 80s Japanese amps that boosted the bass as volume was reduced.
Applies to everything you hear.Of course it applied to all inputs - bass falls-off at low volumes regardless of source. I also didn’t say that this problem applies to all recordings, just a significant percentage – say 20% or so.
I am not quite sure what you mean by an issue of the limitations of CD technology ?Sastusbulbas wrote:Oh dear sorry to appear a Grumpy Old Man but I didn’t say that the Loudness control only applied only to CD. Of course it applied to all inputs - bass falls-off at low volumes regardless of source. I also didn’t say that this problem applies to all recordings, just a significant percentage – say 20% or so. But it is endemic – it’s a mind-set problem for recording engineers as Chesky points out, and an issue of the limitations of CD technology as SACD (which does not exhibit this problem) makes clear.Sine Nomine wrote:I dont think those loudness buttons were just for CD (did they not appear before CD), and I dont think the Chesky subject of many recordings means all recordings were like that.Sorry disagree! The goal of commercial CD production should be to create a sound that appears natural in the smaller spaces of the domestic environment. I know it’s not primarily the fault of my hifi (yes, there are unavoidable room colourations and of course equipment can always be improved), because I also have many wonderfully natural sounding CDs – and even more great sounding vinyl. Not a majority, but a significant percentage of CDs though are simply too bright to sound natural in a domestic setting.Also I couldn’t disagree more about volume. As you reduce the volume it’s the bass you loose not the treble! That was the reason for those ghastly ‘loudness’ controls on 80s Japanese amps that boosted the bass as volume was reduced.
There was a very interesting piece in Hi-Fi Choice last November by David Chesky owner of Chesky Records. As I’m sure you know a very well known and respected recording industry figure, having made some of the best audiophile recordings. Chesky forcibly said that many recordings sound artificial because they were made unnaturally bright to sound ‘more hifi’. That Chesky does not do this is one of the key reasons their recordings sound better.
Plenty of CD's, LP's and even cassettes sound superb, but there are a lot of poor bright sounding CD players out there, and systems which lack any real sense of weight or scale.
Most of these brightness problems would probably be cured with a decent size bass driver within a fuller range speaker system.( IE larger full range speakers and amps with a bit of grunt and ampage)
I think by anyone’s standards my kit would be considered fairly high-end. It’s certainly capable of conveying significant bass weight when called for. Yes, cheapo kit can sound shrill and nasty, but that’s a separate issue. I think it’s generally accepted that as the resolution of equipment improves (through upgrading, tweaking, etc) so good recordings sound better and better, but bad recordings are more clearly exposed for what they are. Not all bad recordings are too bright, but I would suggest that it’s a fairly common component. End of rant.
Hi Mosfet,As volume (or sound pressure level) reduces its frequencies below 1kHz and above 5kHz that become subjectively quieter relative to frequencies within the 1kHz to 5kHz band. This is because of the non-linear response of hearing; between 1kHz and 5kHz human hearing is most acute.As you reduce the volume it’s the bass you loose not the treble! That was the reason for those ghastly ‘loudness’ controls on 80s Japanese amps that boosted the bass as volume was reduced.
A correctly implemented loudness control boosts both below 1kHz and above 5kHz to compensate for this when listening at low volume.
Applies to everything you hear.Of course it applied to all inputs - bass falls-off at low volumes regardless of source. I also didn’t say that this problem applies to all recordings, just a significant percentage – say 20% or so.
“Technology†that pre-dates one of these by several years. Sort of puts it into perspective.If SACD disappears we’ll be stuck with inadequate 70s technology for gawld knows how long. AAAAAAGH!! I can’t stand it, I’ll shove my kit on eBay and take up Seal Bashing in the Arctic before all the ice melts…
I feel CD can sound quite good, and of course SACD and DVD audio were promising , but as a lot of the material being released on these "super" formats was re-mastered from low quality masters without the claimed resolution, all most were buying was a remastered and tweaked version of what had already been released on CD.(a repeated example was Roxy music, whos master tapes were in such poor condition that the SACD stuff was remastered from DAT tape at CD resolution. A common occurence)mosfet wrote:Hi Mosfet,As volume (or sound pressure level) reduces its frequencies below 1kHz and above 5kHz that become subjectively quieter relative to frequencies within the 1kHz to 5kHz band. This is because of the non-linear response of hearing; between 1kHz and 5kHz human hearing is most acute.As you reduce the volume it’s the bass you loose not the treble! That was the reason for those ghastly ‘loudness’ controls on 80s Japanese amps that boosted the bass as volume was reduced.
A correctly implemented loudness control boosts both below 1kHz and above 5kHz to compensate for this when listening at low volume.
Applies to everything you hear.Of course it applied to all inputs - bass falls-off at low volumes regardless of source. I also didn’t say that this problem applies to all recordings, just a significant percentage – say 20% or so.
Yes I agree, strictly it’s true that there is also a perceived fall-off in extreme treble as volume falls. But the bass fall-off is steeper and greater and the lack of fullness or body in the sound is more immediately noticeable. In fact some of those 80’s amps had a thing called a Loudness Contour Control, or something like that. A friend of mine had a Nickmichi (I think it was) amp that had it. If you switched it in it progressively boosted the bass, and also to a lesser extent the extreme treble, as you reduced the volume. Or rather it reduced the mid range more relative to bass and extreme treble – if you see what I mean. I guess it worked to some extent, but was never really convincing.
But in addition to the well known sensitivity curve of the human ear, I’ve a feeling that loudspeakers are also less efficient at producing bass at low volumes. I say this because low powered amps seem to exhibit the ‘bass loss at low volume’ problem more than high powered ones. I had a demo of one of those bloody great Musical Fidelity kW behemoths recently – you need a substation in your garden and a cavalier attitude to global warming. But hey it’s multi-purpose – you can use it for arc welding too! To be honest though, it sounded rather good. But most interesting to me was its performance at low volume. Even at almost background volume levels there was real substance and weight to the sound. So counter intuitively, those who live in flats or those with recalcitrant neighbours might do best with high powered amps.
Your second quote is my typo, sorry. I meant to type ‘the problem of excessive brightness does not apply to all recordings…’ not the Loudness thingy which of course does indeed apply to life, the universe and everything.
Hi Sastusbulbus,
I would have thought the limitations of CD were pretty well rehearsed by now – there have been interminable splenetic utterances in the hi-fi press. I guess it comes down to 16bits at 44.1Hz simply being inadequate to record all the musical and ambient information. And where is this limitation most manifest? - in high frequencies, hence CDs exacerbation of the brightness problem. I agree though that CD tends to have advantages over vinyl specifically in the area of low bass. But recordings vary considerably. I’m afraid I’m not acquainted with ‘Massive Attacks 100th window’ – but it sure as hell sounds as if it’s pretty darn bassy...
It’s a great shame, though perhaps understandable, that SACD has not been a commercial success so far. OK it’s not perfect, but it is better than CD. If it gets dumped it will be a real tragedy – it’s only now starting to get into its stride. It’s a learning curve for engineers (both on the recording and equipment design side) and record companies. If SACD disappears we’ll be stuck with inadequate 70s technology for gawld knows how long. AAAAAAGH!! I can’t stand it, I’ll shove my kit on eBay and take up Seal Bashing in the Arctic before all the ice melts…
“Technology†that pre-dates one of these by several years. Sort of puts it into perspective.If SACD disappears we’ll be stuck with inadequate 70s technology for gawld knows how long. AAAAAAGH!! I can’t stand it, I’ll shove my kit on eBay and take up Seal Bashing in the Arctic before all the ice melts…
What model of Viena Acoustics Beethoven are you using ?If CD is the ZX81 of audio, what is the C5? My vote would be Philips’ Digital Audio Cassette.I agree that issuing a lot of ‘re-mastered’ stuff on SACD initially was really stupid. Especially when you consider how much capital was sunk in the SACD launch. There should have been more carrot - all recordings being state of the art - and stick. What do I mean by ‘stick’? Well look at the compulsion there is to change from analogue TV to digital – draconian and disruptive, but people have accepted it. SACD is backwards compatible with CD. The record companies should have simply announced that all CD production will cease in three years time or something like that. Job done.
Yeah, HDCD was better that vanilla CD. But what annoyed me about that was that when their chip recognised that the disk was an HDCD, it surreptitiously upped the output a notch or two so that the disk played a little louder. We all know from deming one DC player against another, that the one with the higher output can have an unfair advantage.
Equipment wise, I’m into valves in big way. Well if we’re stuck with 70s CD and 50s vinyl you may as well complete the retro ensemble and go for 50s valves.
Analogue front end: Linn LP12/Helius/Koetsu
Digital: Tube Technologies Fulcrum TX4000 Transport and Fulcrum DAC 64
Amp: Prima Luna Prologue 3 pre, plus Prologue 7 monoblocks re-tubed with NOS valves
Speakers: Vienna Acoustics Beethoven
Dynavector SuperStereo adapter driving a Eastern Electric M520 valve amp with Sonus Faber Concertos as sub speakers
Cables: VdH The First and The Second interconnects, Towshend Isolda speaker cables