BBC R3 does it use peak level control at the proms?

Fourlegs

WAVE Digital Cables
Wammer
May 5, 2014
6,370
4,011
183
Melton Mowbray
www.wavehighfidelity.com
AKA
Nick
HiFi Trade?
  1. Yes
I was listening last night to the very enjoyable Beethoven’s 5th live at the proms and I couldn’t help getting the impression that the peak volumes were being controlled. There just wasn’t as much difference between the soft and loud passages as I expected from my experience with CD versions.

Does anyone know if this is used by the Beeb.

By the way, the explanations of the musical contents of the 5th with illustrations being provided using percussion were very interesting as was the audience participation sessions. Great fun and great sounds.
 

tuga

. . .
Wammer
Aug 17, 2007
14,341
7,001
173
Oxen's ford, UK
AKA
Ricardo
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
I was listening last night to the very enjoyable Beethoven’s 5th live at the proms and I couldn’t help getting the impression that the peak volumes were being controlled. There just wasn’t as much difference between the soft and loud passages as I expected from my experience with CD versions.

Does anyone know if this is used by the Beeb.

By the way, the explanations of the musical contents of the 5th with illustrations being provided using percussion were very interesting as was the audience participation sessions. Great fun and great sounds.

Listening to Proms when driving I've had to manually compress using the volume. I would expect them to do a bit of compression and/or normalisation.
If you digitalise the input you could run it through an analyser (e.g. AudioLeak).
 
  • Like
Reactions: bobovox

Fourlegs

WAVE Digital Cables
Wammer
May 5, 2014
6,370
4,011
183
Melton Mowbray
www.wavehighfidelity.com
AKA
Nick
HiFi Trade?
  1. Yes
Listening to Proms when driving I've had to manually compress using the volume. I would expect them to do a bit of compression and/or normalisation.
If you digitalise the input you could run it through an analyser (e.g. AudioLeak).
Its a pity. It spoils the scale of the music.

Thanks for the suggestion of AudioLeak. It appears there are apps which can record radio streams so I could easily have a play with both.
 
  • Like
Reactions: tuga

Man in a van

Wammer
Wammer
Sep 28, 2012
2,006
480
113
Staffordshire
AKA
Ronnie
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
Last edited:

Nopiano

Wammer Plus
Wammer Plus
Jul 19, 2016
9,776
8,316
183
Monmouthshire, Wales
AKA
Nick
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
Last year’s Aurora Orchestra concert was terrific too, and it was on telly. Yes, I believe the Beeb don’t compress Radio 3 like Classic FM or the pop stations, so the average level is much lower. But the maximum is ultimately limited, so it depends how well judged the peaks are (live is often louder than rehearsals due to adrenalin etc) and whether they’ve boosted the quietest bits.

Typically, climaxes sound a bit squashed to me compared with a decent CD or stream. Shame, but it’s the best radio there is unfortunately. When you hear Beethoven 5 live you appreciate how it must have shocked the hell out of contemporary audiences!!
 

Fourlegs

WAVE Digital Cables
Wammer
May 5, 2014
6,370
4,011
183
Melton Mowbray
www.wavehighfidelity.com
AKA
Nick
HiFi Trade?
  1. Yes
Last year’s Aurora Orchestra concert was terrific too, and it was on telly. Yes, I believe the Beeb don’t compress Radio 3 like Classic FM or the pop stations, so the average level is much lower. But the maximum is ultimately limited, so it depends how well judged the peaks are (live is often louder than rehearsals due to adrenalin etc) and whether they’ve boosted the quietest bits.

Typically, climaxes sound a bit squashed to me compared with a decent CD or stream. Shame, but it’s the best radio there is unfortunately. When you hear Beethoven 5 live you appreciate how it must have shocked the hell out of contemporary audiences!!
Nick, Have a listen on BBC Sounds to the bit before the actual performance where they were using percussion to illustrate the construction of the piece. The percussion on that sounded amazing but the limiting seemed to knock the stuffing oiut of the actual performance.
 

Man in a van

Wammer
Wammer
Sep 28, 2012
2,006
480
113
Staffordshire
AKA
Ronnie
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
Just a couple of idle thoughtsa.

With orchestral music; doesn't the conductor determine the volume of the soft and the load passages.

Along with the tempo, these often vary from what the composer intended (or recommended).

And with a recorded piece versus a live piece, there is more opportunity for the recording engineer, with or without the Artist's (aka conductor) permission to adjust the balance.

ronnie
 

Fourlegs

WAVE Digital Cables
Wammer
May 5, 2014
6,370
4,011
183
Melton Mowbray
www.wavehighfidelity.com
AKA
Nick
HiFi Trade?
  1. Yes
Just a couple of idle thoughtsa.

With orchestral music; doesn't the conductor determine the volume of the soft and the load passages.

Along with the tempo, these often vary from what the composer intended (or recommended).

And with a recorded piece versus a live piece, there is more opportunity for the recording engineer, with or without the Artist's (aka conductor) permission to adjust the balance.

ronnie
Have a listen to the concert and see what you think.

Have a listen and then say if you think that is the conductor varying the volume (which is what I think you are suggesting).

The symphony is after the interval.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0019l26
 
Last edited:

Man in a van

Wammer
Wammer
Sep 28, 2012
2,006
480
113
Staffordshire
AKA
Ronnie
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
Have a listen to the concert and see what you think.

Have a listen and then say if you think that is the conductor varying the volume (which is what I think you are suggesting).

The symphony is after the interval.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0019l26

Yes, I'm familiar with BBC Sounds (I use LMS) and I did navigate to the interval talk.

I have no reference for the piece concerned as I last heard it several years ago :( and can't even remember who was conducting.

I'll likely listen some time, but I just accept what's given to me ;) I'll post If I notice anyting untoward o_O

I do remember a BBC 4 TV programme a few years ago, which included an Orchestra using replica period instruments,
Beethoven's 3rd and his attitude to Napoleon.

ronnie
 

bobovox

Wammer Plus
Wammer Plus
Nov 21, 2010
1,283
1,325
193
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
A long discussion here on the R3 forum:

http://www.for3.org/forums/showthre...-Compression-Fader-Fiddling-on-iPlayer-Sounds
TL;DR: Some gentle adjustment to the levels is made at the mixing desk (a few years ago at the RFH the mixing desk was in the auditorium - I was sat a few rows behind and could see faders being adjusted continuously). The FM signal is Optimod-ed to to keep the quiet bits out of FM's noise floor and the peaks from clipping at the transmitter. Also, the transmission needs to be listenable for people in cars and noisy kitchens etc.

In the case of R3, and particularly for the live concerts & the In-Tune sessions, I don't find any compression applied, be it at the mixing desk or via Optimod, to be intrusive or particularly objectionable, unlike the compression applied to Radio 2 and the commercial stations. R2 is competing with the super-loud commercial stations and perhaps has to respond in-kind. Classic FM has less excuse - I don't listen to this anyway because I hate the adverts, I would rather listen to full pieces of music and find the commentators utterly banal. But that's a different matter...
 
  • Like
Reactions: Nopiano

Nopiano

Wammer Plus
Wammer Plus
Jul 19, 2016
9,776
8,316
183
Monmouthshire, Wales
AKA
Nick
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
Nick, Have a listen on BBC Sounds to the bit before the actual performance where they were using percussion to illustrate the construction of the piece. The percussion on that sounded amazing but the limiting seemed to knock the stuffing oiut of the actual performance.
Will do. I’ve been out today, and watching the Games tonight but I know I will enjoy it. The slightly hyper-active but rather brilliant Tom Service is always interesting too.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Fourlegs

Fourlegs

WAVE Digital Cables
Wammer
May 5, 2014
6,370
4,011
183
Melton Mowbray
www.wavehighfidelity.com
AKA
Nick
HiFi Trade?
  1. Yes
I believe the best BBC internet stream is AAC which is not a lossless format. Could that explain the loss of dynamics?
https://boomspeaker.com/flac-vs-aac/
It wasn’t a loss of transient dynamics but rather the persistent loud bits in the Beethoven 5th for want of a better way of describing them seemed to have the overall volume reduced.
 

dave

incurable tinkerer
Wammer
Mar 24, 2014
1,605
924
148
cambs
AKA
dave
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
I traditionally don't have a problem with R3's sound, I most often listen via a TV tuner, but recently, when I have tried to listen to a prom, it had a (difficult to describe) really nasty quality to the sound, kind of grainy and bitty. Odd because I have always enjoyed R3 sound on my stereo. I have been running a Behringer DEQ 2496 in my rig for a year or so, but have recently taken it out and changed amplifier, and I can't help wondering if this is one of the subtle effects of its removal. My vinyl seems more varied as an aside i.e. the good is better and the bad is worse. So I guess my question is, is it just me, and I need to sort my tuner?
 
  • Like
Reactions: tuga

ff1d1l

Wammer
Wammer
Apr 20, 2010
2,308
2,533
158
Snowdonia
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
I listened to R3 live broadcasts in the 70s and 80s through Quad ELSs, and there is no comparison with now. Back then they were acknowledged as the best source available, cetter than reel to reel or vinyl. There was some fader riding, but a very light touch, much as on vinyl.

Its the lowest common denominator now, and car stereos are the target audience.

It would be easy to fit compression as a facility to cat radios, indeed any tuner, and I don't know why they don't, and transmissions with ful dynamic range could be the norm for we who like it.

But the BBC arent bothered about quality - around here there is hum on R4, and at least some of it is studio dependent as well. Complain and I get a helpful reply saying check connections, and how to do it, this despite my saying in the original letter that its happening with three different high quality tuners in three different systems, and the relay transmitter is less than a mile away in line of sight.
 

Nopiano

Wammer Plus
Wammer Plus
Jul 19, 2016
9,776
8,316
183
Monmouthshire, Wales
AKA
Nick
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
Hi Nick,

I had a listen late last night, on BBC Sounds, which I stream to my Linn DSM. I heard the end of the Shostakovich, the whole interval, all the Beethoven intro and the first movement of the symphony.

The introduction and examples were all very vivid as you said. Great sound and easy to get engrossed with the brilliant playing and audience reaction. As soon as the concert proper began the sound was more distant and almost muffled by comparison. Because I was listening out for it, I heard quite a change, especially the more distant perspective.

Thinking about it, aside from any desk twiddling, the mikes used by conductor Nick Conlon and Tom Service would’ve been turned off. Having seen this orchestra perform in Bristol I know that many of them stand up and none use music - hence the sound is vivid as there is no music stand and sheet music in the way, and because they play from memory they listen intently to each other.

Can only guess that the ‘standard’ safe settings were used for the performance, but were ‘off’ in the interval. Together with the extra mikes, that seemed to make a sign difference in presentation. Definitely more compressed sounding and rather colourless after the interval talk and introductory playing.
 

Forum statistics

Threads
113,444
Messages
2,451,263
Members
70,783
Latest member
reg66

Latest Articles