Building a new 2 channel system from scratch - advice?

[Smonks]

I'm wanting to start building a new 2 channel system from scratch - I want to ignore what I currently have as that system was pulled together over time with bits sourced as funds allowed with no auditioning or thought really into what it sounded like.

Sources required are Turntable and Streamer for use with Tidal/Qobuz etc (I'll use my current cd transport for now as plan to rip my cd's into something like an Innuos Zenith).

Having done a fair bit of research I've started creating a shortlist of some of the kit I'm interested in auditioning. I'm very much open to buying ex-demo or s/h as I'm not made of money, and I find mmost audiophiles look after their kit and I can achieve more for my money.

I've had differing advice from various sources (Including dealers) ranging from start with the speakers to start with the source components.

Once I have an idea of the type of sound I like I would like to get a home audition so I can see if the speakers suit my room (I can provide a diagram of the room layout if interested).

The speakers will likely form the front left and right for my AV setup (only 3:1) so an amp with an av bypass is required (although one dealer told me to get rid of the av system and just run stereo from the tv to the amp). Room is approx. 8m x 4m but system points width ways (4m) with 2.7m ceiling height and the speakers (floor standers are probably my preference, can't be too far out from the wall).

To give you an idea of where I'm at, these are some of the things I've auditioned and some of the kit I would like to listen to.

Amps
Naim Supernait 3 ( Auditioned )
Moon 390D/300A ( Auditioned )
Hegel H390
Rega Aethos
Rotel Michi X3

Speakers
Neat Motive SX2 ( Auditioned with Supernait 3 - not enough low end for me )
Neat Motive SX1
ProAc D20R ( Auditioned )
Spendor A7
Spendor D7.2

Turntables
Rega P6 Aria MC Cartridge, Rega Fono MC Phono Stage ( Auditioned with Supernait 3 and Neat Motive SX2 )
Rega P8 ( Auditioned with Moon and ProAc D20R's )

Phono Stage, DAC, Streamer
I have some thoughts on these but obviously much depends on the amp as may have internal dac/phono stage so would suffice for now with a view to upgrading to better external options later.
I am very much open to buying ex-demo or s/h (as some of the above is out of my price range unless I build over a couple of years) but sometimes I'm limited on hearing stuff that I can't find stocked by dealers close to me. For instance, I've recently enquired about a set of ex-demo Spendor D7.2 speakers but located way down south - don't think buying speakers without listening to them is wise Would buying a pair of speakers that are fairly neutral and easily driven/partnered be an ok starting point? Ideally need to home demo but as likely to try and source ex-demo/s/h it's awkward, especially as local dealers don't stock some of the stuff I'm interested in.

Any advice or suggestions would be much appreciated.

 

[Lurch]

A starting/max initial budget would help matters.
As for the idea of ripping to a ZenITH, you won't go far wrong there and I would suggest grabbing the one in the classifieds whilst it's still available, and at a stupidly good price (I have one and it's an excellent piece of kit with a great UI App).
As for source or speakers first, I would say amp, speakers and room are the crucial things to get right. If the speakers react badly with the room (exciting bass nodes etc) and the amp can't control/grip and drive the speakers then your on a hiding to nothing.
Add your town to your profile (Yorkshire a big county) that way people localish to you may offer you the chance to listen to their kit, giving you insight into a wider range of stuff and maybe give you a better idea of the sound your after.

 

[Smonks]

Ok, well I'm not looking at getting everything at once, delayed gratification is a force within me! I'm thinking possibly £10k to get myself a decent amp and some decent speakers including cables. My wife has kindly offered to purchase a turntable for me (p6/p8 region, if I'm good) so that gets me up and running. The streaming side of things will likely have to wait a while.
Obviously, I don't want to spend anymore than I have to but I don't want to get into the constant upgrade route, I'm trying to put something together that I'll be happy with and then that's it, I'll fight the desire to keep going one better! For instance, If I went down the supernait route, I may upgrade with a hi-cap at some point but probably wouldn't want to start changing major pieces of kit, so small improvements perhaps but not major changes. I'd like to think of it as a forever system.

 

[Bodgit]

I'd start with speakers first...and consider active. Active ATC40s would be in your budget, just saying. Active 50s would be a forever speaker IMO, if you can find a pair in budget, second hand.

 

[Smonks]

I'd start with speakers first...and consider active. Active ATC40s would be in your budget, just saying. Active 50s would be a forever speaker IMO, if you can find a pair in budget, second hand.

Ah yes, I also had the ATC SCM40's on my list but hadn't really considered the active versions. My local dealer has some ex-demo versions of the active version for just under £6k.

 

[It Cost How Much!?!]

Go listen to some dealer systems and some local people on here before spending anything.

 

[hearhere]

I'd start with speakers first...and consider active. Active ATC40s would be in your budget, just saying. Active 50s would be a forever speaker IMO, if you can find a pair in budget, second hand.

I agree - start with speakers as they are so room dependent. You can always find an amp that’s a great match for speakers, but some speakers will never sound great in some rooms.

It's interesting that so many people like the ATC Active 50s, despite the fact these speakers are designed primarily for use in recording studio, etc rather than for the consumer market.

What's the difference, some may ask? Well one pro magazine article I read rather tongue in cheek said (I paraphrase) "the recording studio monitor is designed to highlight what's bad in recordings so the engineer can do his best to fix it - the consumerc speaker is designed to present the finished recording in as thrilling a way as possible"

I owned a pair of Active 50s about 20 years ago, after hankering after them for years before that. Alas, I found them far too much "in-yer-face" and I wanted to push them 20 ft further way. After less than a year I sold them and moved to speakers designed to thrill and deliver the "goosebump factor" that most domestic listeners crave. What a breath of fresh air!

The 40s, as far as I know were designed for the domestic market - there's never been a 40 in ATC's Professional range - so may be more at home in the home! I think there are other speakers that would provide greater listener enjoyment though.

 

[Bodgit]

I take issue with ATC speakers being designed for the recording studio - the SCM40s and 50s etc are all designed for the consumer market. "Entry" (40) and Tower (50+) series are all aimed for the domestic rather than professional market.

ATC speakers are very transparent, they do give a 'warts and all' sound, which isn't for everyone though.

 

[Idlewithnodrive]

Go listen to some dealer systems and some local people on here before spending anything.

What this bloke said - 100%

 

[Jazid]

Agree totally. You need to find out what YOU like, then find a way of getting it in your room. It will take a while. We can advise till the world stops turning, our experience will be better used if we are discussing what amps work with which speakers, it will take 90% of the going round in circles out of the thread.

And please ditch the AV idea, 2 channel and AV are usually poor bedfellows.

 

[hearhere]

I take issue with ATC speakers being designed for the recording studio - the SCM40s and 50s etc are all designed for the consumer market. "Entry" (40) and Tower (50+) series are all aimed for the domestic rather than professional market.

ATC speakers are very transparent, they do give a 'warts and all' sound, which isn't for everyone though.

Until relatively recently ATC offered only their Professional range. Because these look pretty uninspiring, they introduced the identical drivers, electronics and controls in more domestically acceptable enclosures – marketed as the Consumer range. The 50 Tower for example still has the same 50 litre internal volume but with a large "wasted space" below the drivers' enclosure (in place of the unsightly pro stand) that contributes nothing to the sound. Yes, the smaller speakers are designed for consumer use, but I'm pretty sure the 50 and upwards are identical apart from their flashier enclosures.

Transparency is all well and good, but as a music lover, I really don't want the warts emphasised as much as the mixing engineer needs them to be. He needs to hear them so he can fix some of them – I don’t need them at all if this can be avoided!

 

[lazycat]

I've had differing advice from various sources (Including dealers) ranging from start with the speakers to start with the source components.

Obviously you need speakers which work in your room. But when it comes to a vinyl system I'd spend a bit more on the source and find appropriate amp/speakers.

Digital only systems, IMO, can be more evenly spread money wise. I wonder if the P6/ Fono was partly responsible for lack of low end?

That said, I'm not a fan of Rega T/Ts - thought I'd better state that.

How did the Proacs sound with a better turntable?

I think that with a P8 you'd need an Aria or equivalent to get the best from it. Don't underestimate the importance of a good phono stage.

 

[Smonks]

How did the Proacs sound with a better turntable?

I think that with a P8 you'd need an Aria or equivalent to get the best from it. Don't underestimate the importance of a good phono stage.

Hard to compare to the p6, two different dealers so different audition rooms - one large and acoustically treated, the other smaller and plain walls with lots of reverberation, and two different amps.
It sounded really nice though and was just using the internal phono stage of the Moon amp.Yeah, a decent phono stage is on my shopping list but if the amp I go for has an internal phono stage it may have to wait a little while so I can get a better quality external one when funds permit.

 

[bigrod]

Go and listen to lots of gear if it’s going to be an end game set up . Some guys on here have lovely systems . And if you like them , wait till some come up second hand .. never be in a rush .. it took me 2 years to put my end game system together.. always wanting to help…
I’m in Nottinghamshire less than 10 min from the M1 if you fancy a run out ..

 

[Smonks]

it took me 2 years to put my end game system together..

That makes me feel better! I'm in no rush, it's a big outlay so I want to get it right so just need to slowly work my way around dealers and audition various kit. Thanks for the offer, if I'm heading in that direction to visit a dealer I may take you up on that (unless you have some outrageously expensive to-die-for system in which case I don't want to hear it as I'll never achieve it )

 

[bigrod]

That makes me feel better! I'm in no rush, it's a big outlay so I want to get it right so just need to slowly work my way around dealers and audition various kit. Thanks for the offer, if I'm heading in that direction to visit a dealer I may take you up on that (unless you have some outrageously expensive to-die-for system in which case I don't want to hear it as I'll never achieve it )

It’s certainly outrageous lol , but carefully selected components not just for SQ . But for looks too which is very important if you’re gonna live with it forever ..
I guess at todays prices second hand not including the unit everything sits on , 10 grand would be about right. …

 

[Jules_S]

Hi @Smonks and welcome. I've just re-read what I've typed and realised it's a bit "war & peace" so apologies, but hopefully at least some of it will be useful to you.

As you've already found from your dealer discussions and the replies so far, there will be a huge range of opinions (we all have one....). The best bit of advice I can offer you is - take your time. It's a fun and rewarding hobby if you don't rush - enjoy the process of discovering "your" personal preferences, auditioning kit and building your system.

You are in a very fortunate position in some ways, starting from scratch without preconceived ideas or stereotypes. Keep an open mind to all sorts of possibilities, depending on the flexibility you have with the space that the system will live in. You have, wisely, already mentioned the room in your first post. Do take some time to pick our brains about rooms, layouts and seating positions - it's often forgotten that the room makes a significant contribution to the overall performance of the system placed in it, so what you hear at a dealers and fall in love with might sound totally different when in your own place, so be mindful of that. Wherever possible, arrange home demos. Decent dealers will be willing to arrange this for you, and with the large and friendly Wam community in and around your area I'm sure some will happily come over with kit for you to try out.

Probably obvious, but don't shoe-horn a massive floorstander into a box-room, or vice versa. If you have the luxury of being able to pull speakers away from the side walls and what is normally referred to as the "front" wall (i.e. the wall you look at when you're sat listening) that will give you a wider choice of speakers that will work for you.

On the whole "front-end first / speakers first" debate, I'd say that while the speaker / room interaction has the largest single impact on what you hear, it's also worth saying that achieving a balance between source, amplification and speakers is going to give the best results. Cr*p in, cr*p out still applies - a £10k speaker isn't going to show what it's capable of with a budget TT / CDP / streamer, but then again a £10k analogue rig is going to be wasted with a £200 amp and £200 speakers. While it offers future potential (and you'd certainly max-out the speakers potential!), it would be a short-term waste of funds until you could upgrade the rest.

Personally I would say that finding equipment of an equivalent potential level of performance is what to aim for. That doesn't necessarily mean allocating your budget evenly. You'll probably need to invest a slightly larger sum of money in the TT / arm / cart / phono than in the amp to find that equivalency. There are many examples of older amps that can easily cut it with the latest models for performance, for example. Given that you said you're happy to consider "pre-loved" equipment that could give you a great way to find the balance if, for example, you fell head over heels for a specific front end or speakers and needed to make some financial compromises.

I should also say, give some thought to whether you will view this as your one-shot chance to build a system or if you are open to the possibility of future upgrades. The latter approach has the benefit of allowing you to accept a compromise somewhere in the chain with a view to improving it at a later date. You may, for example, choose to go with a high-performing MM cartridge and an amp's built-in phono stage (as you mentioned in your post) rather than blow £2k up-front on a fancy MC, PLUS the extra expense of a SUT / external phono.

With the above caveat about rooms and acoustics, previous advice to listen to a wide range of other systems is spot-on. The more you hear, the more you will get to experience what a broad church hi-fi and music can be. Local bake-offs (social events held by Wammers at their homes) will probably expose you to more kit than any one dealer could achieve, from the mainstream to the downright wacky! And we don't bite (OK, a few less house-trained ones might...) 😁

I won't mention much kit as I'm sure you will soon be swamped by recommendations! But to your point about getting a neutral speaker as a start point, if what you mean by that is something to "get you started" with a view to changing later, you can't go too far wrong with something from Q Acoustics. Many Wammers including myself have found how well they perform, usually well beyond their price point, and they are essentially vice-free. Sins-of-omission, if you like, rather than anything glaringly obvious. They partner well with most kit, are easy to get hold of and would stand you in good stead. The pricier Concept models, while not performing quite as high above their price points, are excellent

Active speakers, which have already been mentioned by @Bodgit are an option well worth considering too in your situation. Upsides being the tight integration of amplification and transducer giving a well-matched performance. Downside really is that if you feel you've outgrown them in the future, you're having to replace them entirely rather than just upgrading the amplification, for example. You may struggle a little with a bypass input for A/V duties too. ATC are a popular choice for actives, though as with most stuff there's as many different opinions of them as there are varieties of tomato! I'd put them on the "list of stuff to hear" though for definite.

At the analogue front end you may want to think about one of the Technics models - they are excellent performers if you can get past the DJ looks (I can't, but there is the prettier / higher-priced / performing Technics SP10 in that case, which is a stellar deck and pretty much bomb-proof). Their decks are a great platform for many arms and cartridges to hang from.

Oh, and if you are able to, get a wall shelf for the turntable, unless you have solid floors. Joists & floorboards and turntables are not happy bedfellows! Even a suspended subchassis deck is not immune to footfall. Also allocate a little bit of money (not a fortune) for some vinyl "housekeeping" stuff too if you don't already have it - a decent RCM (record cleaning machine) salvages many a second-hand purchase. Also don't forget a stylus brush / cleaner / sticky stuff to keep things clean. If you're not planning on swapping cartridges too often you can probably borrow alignment tools from one of us on here if you need to rather than buy your own, or if you end up buying from a dealer, get them to do the setup for you.

 

[Smonks]

Thanks Jules_S - War and peace is great when it has so much valuable advice - thank you for taking the time to write it!
I recently enquired about some ex-demo Spendor D7.2's which I understand are nice speakers and aren't too fussy about positioning close to walls. I haven't heard them yet and would have to find them closer to me as this dealer is down south, but they're available for £4.5k. Thats a big chunk of change but brings them closer in price to the likes of the Concept 500 (not sure if you were referring to these when you mentioned Q Acoustics).

Should they both sound nice to me and they both work in my room, where would you put your money? More on speakers upfront and then potentially wait a while to get the next piece of kit when funds allow?

Whilst there are certain upgrade paths I'm happy to go along like phono stages, cartridges, power supplies, cables etc I guess I'm wanting to get the core elements to the system right - would you spend more on one element now over the other if it means you can't get everything at once, but ultimately get a better system in the end?

In short, I guess what I'm asking is (room suitability and whether I like the sound of them aside), will the SQ be potentially significantly better (with suitably good quality sources/amplification) when looking at a £4k speaker compared to a £ 5.6k speaker (new) - are there significant jumps in sound quality for those kind of margins in price?

 

[Wenge1]

As has been already mentioned by a couple of other posters, I think that you may need
to consider the balance you are thinking of re the cost allocation between turntable / amplification / speakers. With vinyl as your front end it is very well established that a bit more needs to be invested in that area as compared to the amplification and speakers if you are to get the best overall sound. An RP6 at £800 + whatever cart you choose is way out of whack if you are considering investing upwards of £10,000 on amps and speakers. There will be so much 'unused' capacity in the amps and the speakers with such a cost allocation.

In the Rega hierarchy, IMHO, you should, at a minimum, be looking at an RP8 with an Ania MC cart at around £2,100 new. This is a much better turntable, arm and cart than an RP6 etc. Now, I'm not saying that a Rega RP8 (or even an RP10) is the best turntable in their relative price brackets, I'm just using it as an example of just how way out of kilter an RP6 would be as the driving front end of £10,000 worth of amplification and speakers .

 

[luckysim0n]

I see you are in Leeds there is a large Yorkshire massive and they are a friendly bunch sure some would let you come round for a visit and listen
If you don't mind a trip to Liverpool I have a P8 which are welcome to listen too
For your initial budget you could put together an awesome system from the secondhand market