Building a new 2 channel system from scratch - advice?

Smonks

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Is it DNA?
Yeah.

I have to say, whilst the supernait sounds lovely I'm not convinced it's right for me - as you all say, I need to keep listening to lots more kit.

I do like to turn my music up a bit, I like to feel it and not just hear it - if that makes sense, and I'm not talking of bass and drum hits to shatter windows and vibrate my floors, just something that has presence. Clarity is good and I like the better sq I'm hearing with better quality kit, but I find the supernait to be, well....quite refined, maybe I want something that will hit me in the gut and slap me about the face a bit :) I'm guessing the Neat speakers weren't helping though.
I'm thinking the Hegel 390 may have a bit more of what I'm looking for when paired with some speakers capable of producing a bit more oooomph (pardon the technical term), just going to have to travel out of Yorkshire to audition one I think.

Jules_S - good tip on the vino!
 

Lurch

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In the new year there should be an announcement about the location & possible dates of the 2023 Wam Show (usually the Midlands somewhere). This is the absolutely ideal opportunity for you to hear 30 - 40 disparate home systems covering all budgets, brought along and demonstrated by fellow Wammers. Have a look at previous show threads to see what goes on then clear your diary for that weekend.
 

Minicoupeman

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So not yet mentioned ( among some great advice) is that you intend to be ‘multi source’. An issue now arises - been there, done that - if you are not careful then one source will outperform the other source(s) to the extent that you wind up spending 80% of your listening time with only one source and consider money wasted on the other source(s). I have a very nice, very expensive SACD/CD player that hardly ever gets used. It can’t compete with vinyl and streaming. Go careful. One step at a time.
 

Wenge1

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but I find the supernait to be, well....quite refined,

I have selected the above from your post as it so demonstrates the absolute need for you to keep on demoing stuff. Why this particular quote; well I don't ever recall anyone saying that they found the Supernait 3 to be a refined listen.
 

Wenge1

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😂 Just goes to show how much I know right now! Perhaps refined is the wrong word...maybe clinical?
Don't worry, the purpose of my post was not so much to pick you up on your choice of adjective but to highlight we all hear things differently and sometimes very differently. The most important thing is that you have found from the demo that the Supernait 3 is not for you ....... (y)
 
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martinpix

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I'm wanting to start building a new 2 channel system from scratch - I want to ignore what I currently have as that system was pulled together over time with bits sourced as funds allowed with no auditioning or thought really into what it sounded like.

Sources required are Turntable and Streamer for use with Tidal/Qobuz etc (I'll use my current cd transport for now as plan to rip my cd's into something like an Innuos Zenith).

Having done a fair bit of research I've started creating a shortlist of some of the kit I'm interested in auditioning. I'm very much open to buying ex-demo or s/h as I'm not made of money, and I find mmost audiophiles look after their kit and I can achieve more for my money.

I've had differing advice from various sources (Including dealers) ranging from start with the speakers to start with the source components.

Once I have an idea of the type of sound I like I would like to get a home audition so I can see if the speakers suit my room (I can provide a diagram of the room layout if interested).

The speakers will likely form the front left and right for my AV setup (only 3:1) so an amp with an av bypass is required (although one dealer told me to get rid of the av system and just run stereo from the tv to the amp). Room is approx. 8m x 4m but system points width ways (4m) with 2.7m ceiling height and the speakers (floor standers are probably my preference, can't be too far out from the wall).

To give you an idea of where I'm at, these are some of the things I've auditioned and some of the kit I would like to listen to.

Amps
Naim Supernait 3 ( Auditioned )
Moon 390D/300A ( Auditioned )
Hegel H390
Rega Aethos
Rotel Michi X3

Speakers
Neat Motive SX2 ( Auditioned with Supernait 3 - not enough low end for me )
Neat Motive SX1
ProAc D20R ( Auditioned )
Spendor A7
Spendor D7.2

Turntables
Rega P6 Aria MC Cartridge, Rega Fono MC Phono Stage ( Auditioned with Supernait 3 and Neat Motive SX2 )
Rega P8 ( Auditioned with Moon and ProAc D20R's )

Phono Stage, DAC, Streamer
I have some thoughts on these but obviously much depends on the amp as may have internal dac/phono stage so would suffice for now with a view to upgrading to better external options later.
I am very much open to buying ex-demo or s/h (as some of the above is out of my price range unless I build over a couple of years) but sometimes I'm limited on hearing stuff that I can't find stocked by dealers close to me. For instance, I've recently enquired about a set of ex-demo Spendor D7.2 speakers but located way down south - don't think buying speakers without listening to them is wise :) Would buying a pair of speakers that are fairly neutral and easily driven/partnered be an ok starting point? Ideally need to home demo but as likely to try and source ex-demo/s/h it's awkward, especially as local dealers don't stock some of the stuff I'm interested in.

Any advice or suggestions would be much appreciated.
I can fully recommend the HegelH390 surpasses the naim by a long way and give you digital the onboard DAC is exellent , just use a wifi extender with a network port if you require wifi. Ripping Cd's if you have a laptop and know what you are doing to rip them id recommend a Nas hard drive to store the files easy and sounds as good as any of the cd rippers on the market with the right software and is far cheaper and will have larger storage, you can also rip films to it.
I would try some Kudos speakers or even PMC both are great with the Hegel amp far better than Proac ive owned all 3 , but we all like different sounds .
 

Friendly Ghost

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I can fully recommend the HegelH390 surpasses the naim by a long way and give you digital the onboard DAC is exellent , just use a wifi extender with a network port if you require wifi. Ripping Cd's if you have a laptop and know what you are doing to rip them id recommend a Nas hard drive to store the files easy and sounds as good as any of the cd rippers on the market with the right software and is far cheaper and will have larger storage, you can also rip films to it.
I would try some Kudos speakers or even PMC both are great with the Hegel amp far better than Proac ive owned all 3 , but we all like different sounds .
What was not to your liking in the Proac-Hegel combination?
 
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Jezzer

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The DAC in the H390 is great by all accounts but Hegel’s own HD30 standalone DAC is better - and so it should be at almost £4,000. But you can pick a used one of these up for almost half the new price then pair it with a power amp of your choice because the HD30 also acts as a very competent digital pre-amp… Then you benefit from a proper pre/power set up. You can even separate the power amps into mono-blocks… I know this works because it’s what I’ve done! (with Bel Canto amps and Focal speakers)
 

martinpix

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What was not to your liking in the Proac-Hegel combination?
I never used proac with the Hegel I moved from proac 1sc to proac d1 also tried the D2 which was a lot better just to big and bulky , I had a roksan Blak amp then , changed to PMC twenty521 which were great but then tried kudos super 10a and these are so good they are my end point speakers they just do everything perfect , I can,t compare them to my older speakers that wouldn’t be fair as they are just simply in a deifferent league neutral but nice warm sound , the PMC deffo bettered the proac but do add a signature sound of their own , the kudos don’t add their own sound they just give you what is in the recording be it good or bad, ery easy to drive and a nice size but very heavy given their size which is always a good sign.
 

Metatron

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the kudos don’t add their own sound they just give you what is in the recording be it good or bad
I second this.

But my views are extremely different to those so far...

If I had a £10K budget, I'd find which of the Chi-Fi DACs I like around £1k, buy some Purifi amps (not Nord, VTV, but the actual Eigentakt) for another £1k and spend the rest on speakers. Probably the Kudos 606 or 707 at a used price. Or perhaps used Martin Logan's such as Montis, Summit, Summit X, ESL11A.

If you hear what the Purifi amps do (not the ones with custom Sparkos/Sonic Imagery opamps in the input buffer, but the standard Eigentakt variety), you'd realize these are pretty much end-game amps, and like the Kudos, ruthlessly revealing of system changes. You might find them bright and change a cable and find them very warm. I've not experienced cable differences with much else, but these really seem to more unequivocally demonstrate cables can sound different. And I am a famous caller of cables as foo. The objective reality is where else will you find so much power, grip (damping factor), speed, resolution, clarity for about £1k and comparable to, dare I say, some exalted stalwart brand offerings?

There's also a snobbery that Chi-Fi DACs cannot sound good. If anything, the equivalent Western equivalent designs would be 2 to 3 times more in price. Delta-Sigma, R2R, NOS variants are all available. Just look at the following for Denafrips and how much they are liked. Clearly Chi-Fi has something to offer.

Now I know the above is only digital. And FWIW, I've rebuilt my system this way as a bit of an experiment and because running a class A beast all day is going to be unaffordable at current energy prices, but you can always find a used DAC that also has an analog input and a good preamp section. Benchmark DAC3 is one example. Or a Schiit Freya for a cost effective pre.

TT is more your choice, but I find cartridges make the most difference along with the phono stage. As far as actual TT goes, I don't see a need for more than a Technics SL1200G or SL1200GR. Other TTs look far prettier, but a Technics is an absolutely reliable workhorse.

I'll probably get flamed for all the above as people's misconceptions and prejudices about needing to spend more on a DAC and amps relative to speakers kicks in, or because such objectively well measuring stuff must, by audiophile folklore definition, be bright, brash and clinical. Well it could be, but it's actually all tameable with the right synergy and, dare I say, cables. What I have frankly surpasses my prior far more expensive DAC, pre and power amp, which I still have for comparison.
 

Nativebon

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I'm an odd one and never seem to go for the obvious. If it don't do it for me that's just it, no matter how popular the item in question. Taking into account limitation of funds of course.

From many stories told so far in this thread, people's opinions differ enormously from the same item of hifi. I tried some of the popular speakers mentioned here.... Sounded good at demo in shop, but below average in my room.

The type of presentation one prefers or acquires can be a very personal thing, and that should be taken into account when finalising from popular recommendations.
Took me a year to find the right speaker for me, but really worth it.

No one is right until you get it right to suit you :).
 
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hiesteem

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I'm wanting to get the core elements of the system right
I think this is a good way to proceed. I would also say, to get a sense of the sound signature that you find satisfying and audition what you can. Every product you mentioned is some of the best at their price point.
Then it would be wise to make sure they work well together.
 
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martinpix

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Cables are also important especially speaker cable regardless of peoples snake oil opinions, if your going to take a stab in the dark on this one and go for something of reasonable price that will hold its vale, get some second hand chord epic cable it is honestly the best for the money .
you get 2 3-4 m runs for £300-£400 with terminated banana plugs each end. I went from naim Nac5 to this and the difference was night and day and a real eye opener as id not imagined the difference this made, made my system sound completely different in a very good way and was the best value upgrade I have ever done. Judging by what appears to be your budget I would say this would work very well for you and is price about right as well.
 

Smonks

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If I had a £10K budget, I'd find which of the Chi-Fi DACs I like around £1k, buy some Purifi amps (not Nord, VTV, but the actual Eigentakt) for another £1k and spend the rest on speakers.

@Metatron So are you talking about something like this?

SoundImpress PU400-2CH Stereo Amplifier

Would you need a pre-amp with this for all the line inputs?
The NAD M33 is based on Eigentakt tech - but obviously a lot of money!
 

hearhere

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If I had a £10K budget, I'd find which of the Chi-Fi DACs I like around £1k, buy some Purifi amps (not Nord, VTV, but the actual Eigentakt) for another £1k
But remember the off-the-shelf Purifi Eigentakt boat is for evaluation and marked as such with EVAL.

This is great for the DIY'er but it can be improved upon by the big brands who work with Purifi to optimise the performance and build under license from Purifi using better componants than the EVAL board.

At least 2 big brands offer these optinised Eigentakt technology - NAD and T&A. Instead of spending the £1k on an EVAL board Eigentakt amp module, better value and better qualitty is to be had from say the NAD M33. Not only a power amp, but also preamp, DAC, streamer and Dirac Room correction in a single smart box for about £4K and no need for interconnects. The M33 is a great product and takes some beating and you'll need £8-10 to beat its performance. I have the M33 and it's well up to the job of powering my £34K speakers. I'm cautiously looking to ugrade but I know it'll cost me £10+K to better the M33 - perhaps a Hegel H390 or Mark Levinson 5802 plus a streamer..
 

TheFlash

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Cables are also important especially speaker cable regardless of peoples snake oil opinions, if your going to take a stab in the dark on this one and go for something of reasonable price that will hold its vale, get some second hand chord epic cable it is honestly the best for the money .
you get 2 3-4 m runs for £300-£400 with terminated banana plugs each end. I went from naim Nac5 to this and the difference was night and day and a real eye opener as id not imagined the difference this made, made my system sound completely different in a very good way and was the best value upgrade I have ever done. Judging by what appears to be your budget I would say this would work very well for you and is price about right as well.
Different story here on cables.I've been there and done that with Nordost Blue Heaven LS and Townshend Isolda cables, both of which had a signature which impressed one way or another, but ultimately whatever strengths they showed came with weaknesses elsewhere.

In assembling a system from scratch, I'd go for something which ticks just about every cable design box except the insulator material which is PVC rather than Teflon: Van Damme UP-LCOFC 6mm. Yeah, sure, have a play further down the road if you fancy it but in order to select and match components you want your cables to be as clear and neutral as possible.
 
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TheFlash

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But remember the off-the-shelf Purifi Eigentakt boat is for evaluation and marked as such with EVAL.

This is great for the DIY'er but it can be improved upon by the big brands who work with Purifi to optimise the performance and build under license from Purifi using better componants than the EVAL board.

At least 2 big brands offer these optinised Eigentakt technology - NAD and T&A. Instead of spending the £1k on an EVAL board Eigentakt amp module, better value and better qualitty is to be had from say the NAD M33. Not only a power amp, but also preamp, DAC, streamer and Dirac Room correction in a single smart box for about £4K and no need for interconnects. The M33 is a great product and takes some beating and you'll need £8-10 to beat its performance. I have the M33 and it's well up to the job of powering my £34K speakers. I'm cautiously looking to ugrade but I know it'll cost me £10+K to better the M33 - perhaps a Hegel H390 or Mark Levinson 5802 plus a streamer..
I was sufficiently intrigued by the mention of the Eigentakt modules that I have just had a poke around and it was the NAD M33 which came up as offering what looks like a killer combo: I love the BluOS app on my Node 2i so this is the icing on the cake.

Love the fact that you're using yours to drive £34k speakers!
 

Smonks

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The M33 is a lovely looking product, and by all accounts has great SQ, and with Direc enabled, can improve even more. I like having a lot of functionality in one box and the large screen is a nice touch.
However, what about longevity? What if the screen fails in 10 years time? Would you be better off just buying an analogue amp and have separate devices for streaming which can be upgraded in later years as the technology improves?
That said, £4k for the M33 versus £5.2k for a Hegel H390 - in one respect I lean towards the 390, on the other i like the 390 but the extra expense of adding an Innuos or similar, hmmm. Will be interesting to listen to them both I think.
 

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