Building a new 2 channel system from scratch - advice?

Steveh

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I'm an odd one and never seem to go for the obvious. If it don't do it for me that's just it, no matter how popular the item in question. Taking into account limitation of funds of course.

From many stories told so far in this thread, people's opinions differ enormously from the same item of hifi. I tried some of the popular speakers mentioned here.... Sounded good at demo in shop, but below average in my room.

The type of presentation one prefers or acquires can be a very personal thing, and that should be taken into account when finalising from popular recommendations.
Took me a year to find the right speaker for me, but really worth it.

No one is right until you get it right to suit you :).
ooh, suit you sir? Going to give them all a try until you find the one sir? ooh suit you sir.........
 
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Different story here on cables.I've been there and done that with Nordost Blue Heaven LS and Townshend Isolda cables, both of which had a signature which impressed one way or another, but ultimately whatever strengths they showed came with weaknesses elsewhere.

In assembling a system from scratch, I'd go for something which ticks just about every cable design box except the insulator material which is PVC rather than Teflon: Van Damme UP-LCOFC 6mm. Yeah, sure, have a play further down the road if you fancy it but in order to select and match components you want your cables to be as clear and neutral as possible.
Very important yes and what I suggested are neutral and clear, the main point also is the price and knowing if you upgrade later that you will always get your money back, which is why I would always go for chord cables they are by far the easiest to move on if need be. Nordost I have tried a few all were detailed but very shrill and sterile sounding to top end for my ears , Townsend have a sound of their own that you either like or don't im not a big fan , they are an improvement on Nordost though. depends as suppose on your speakers, mine are internal wired with chord signature or epic from the factory so make sense to follow that on, mismatched cables cancel each other out I find, I have chord signature throughout and epic speaker cable, I can't afford the signature speaker cable in the length I need at 5m x 2 .
 
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hearhere

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That said, £4k for the M33 versus £5.2k for a Hegel H390 - in one respect I lean towards the 390, on the other i like the 390 but the extra expense of adding an Innuos or similar, hmmm. Will be interesting to listen to them both I think.
The Hegel is something I may get to replace just PART of the M33. To replace all the M33's features, a streamer and room correction devices are required. My first step may be to get a loan H390 to see how its DAC amnd amp compares with the M33 - easy to do as both would use the M33's streamer. I suspect there will be a small improvement but I'd love it to offer a significant upgrade. Alternative amps with DACs that I'm considering include the digital only Mark Levinson 5802 (you's prefer the analogue and digital 5805), the Cambridge Edge A, AVM CS 5.3, Perreaux 200i, Copland CSA 100 or 150 and one or two others. I'd be happy for further suggestions. Thanks
 

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@Metatron So are you talking about something like this?

SoundImpress PU400-2CH Stereo Amplifier

Would you need a pre-amp with this for all the line inputs?
The NAD M33 is based on Eigentakt tech - but obviously a lot of money!
Yes, that's the right sort of Purifi amp. Basically they are ultra clean and anything commercial like the NAD uses the input buffer to colour the sound in some way, replace the SMPS with a transformer based LPS to play on Audiophile nervosa, and add a hefty price.

Most Chi-Fi DACs but not all have an integrated preamp and XLR outputs so can direct connect, but the DACs with inbuilt preamp don't have analog inputs. You would need a dedicated pre for analog inputs. I only know the Benchmark DAC3 as a DAC with a somewhat proper inbuilt pre with 2 analog inputs that bypass the digital section. There probably is something else available.

I opted for a Benchmark LA4 ex-dem at a good price.

I did have an issue of brightness with all my changes initially as I previously had a warm sound from Modwright preamp and Pass Labs amp in class A. I measured the response in REW and found a slight suckout between 80 and 200Hz. An adjustment via PEQ in Roon levelled it out and suddenly I had a similar sound, but more resolving, still smooth and subtly warm. I tried a raft of Interconnects and each had an influence on sound. I havent tried expensive audiophile interconnects yet. Of the pro interconnects I settled on Mogami W2459 as producing a believable soundstage that didnt distort relative to frequency. This means its very stable. Overall the Mogami were just natural and never bright or fatiguing. Those interconnects bettered the Supra EFF-IXLR I previously used.

I also used to use VanDamme or Supra speaker cable. For the latter I used Classic 6T which is a chunky guage that should be sufficient. But when I used all Supra cabling it was bright and flat. The speaker cable was changed to Chord Epic X. This made things warmer, more authoritative in bass, a fuller soundstage, more relaxed/refined when needed. I will try others in case something sounds better, but I don't want cabling to be too pricey.

I could live with it as-is, but I think the Purifi amps could render any DACs output faithfully, regardless of cost. Whether they sound nice or dire is part DAC and part cables. But I figure I'll see if any expensive DACs over 2k from slawart brands better equivalent priced Chinese offerings.

Obviously it's all personal and for my ears, but all I'd really say is try the Purifi amps and if they don't sound quite right, play with the cables to see if you can tune it as you like it, before giving up.
 

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This is great for the DIY'er but it can be improved upon by the big brands who work with Purifi to optimise the performance and build under license from Purifi using better componants than the EVAL board.
This is just marketing. What does better mean? If it's engineered better it measures better and all tweaked versions like thise from NAD measure worse. Audiophonics do Purifi amps without eval board, but using recommended simple opamp input buffer that preserve Eigentakt character rather than colour.
 

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Yes, that's the right sort of Purifi amp. Basically they are ultra clean and anything commercial like the NAD uses the input buffer to colour the sound in some way, replace the SMPS with a transformer based LPS to play on Audiophile nervosa, and add a hefty price.
Right, so I saw the NAD and thought it was the real deal with bells on.

For the naive simpleton (asking for a friend) seeking to differentiate between those that do and those do not colour, what are the key words to look out for? I'm worried about simply avoiding "anything commercial".

Unrelated Q: if the "right sort" sound so good, why would commercial players like NAD make them sound worse? I have no issue with people adding a hefty price - they have marketing costs, costs of a lovely case, offer a warranty, support, etc. Them be market forces.
 

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Right, so I saw the NAD and thought it was the real deal with bells on.

For the naive simpleton (asking for a friend) seeking to differentiate between those that do and those do not colour, what are the key words to look out for? I'm worried about simply avoiding "anything commercial".

Unrelated Q: if the "right sort" sound so good, why would commercial players like NAD make them sound worse? I have no issue with people adding a hefty price - they have marketing costs, costs of a lovely case, offer a warranty, support, etc. Them be market forces.
I appreciate it's hard to see why I steered in that direction. "Anything commercial" is not the right wording really. I simply mean a Purifi amp shifted from its reference performance point by input buffers claiming to improve on the default performance.

Look at ASR measurments of a Purifi Eval amp and it matches what Purifi claim. Look at the Purifi-based NAD measurements and you realize it's worse. Yes measurements like SINAD aren't super informative as to how something sounds, other than to say less noise and distortion is always preferable. But two similar SINAD scores for amps might mean they sound different if the distortions are notably different where it may matter more. For instance, lower IMD from a multi-tone test is generally going to benefit perceived SQ. It's interesting that people generally prefer Purifi over NCore when they are broadly similar, but Purifi achieves lower IMD generally. The same can be said for DACs... there are some at or above 120db SINAD but struggling to stay under -130db IMD, while some poorer SINAD score DACs, like a Chord Qutest are poorer overall but have IMD down at -140db. Where distortion resides is important.

Back to your question...

Input buffers using an off the shelf LM4562 or OPA1612, or the EVAL input buffers maintain the performance level of the Eigentakt.

Sparkos, Sonic Imagery opamps and others tend to 'flavour' the sound with some added harmonics, albeit not much. They will sound different, but not by much. The question, which my view answers, is, are these worth paying for?

To me, it makes sense to start with the best objectively measured amp as per the Eigentakt. If that sort of transparency cannot be tuned by yourself to how you like it, then look further afield. At least you didnt spend large.

FWIW, I have a Pass amp (Nigel, you know what these sound like) and I can make my Purifi monoblocks sound like it, but even cleaner and more resolving. I can also make my monoblocks sound more like a brighter stable of amps.

When I first got them, I thought they were bright relative to the Pass. I then measured the room and found that I had a broad dip in in-room frequency response from 80 to 200Hz. It was not a null, but I applied a -3db cut across all frequencies and then added a single parametric EQ boost of 6db to fill the hole in the bass. The result was a naturally warm and articulate sound. But even so, if I basically produce more bass hump, or change the tilt of the treble response versus the Harman Curve, I can get these things to tonally sound however I wish. The one thing I cannot do is make them less resolving, less detailed, less articulate, or less capable of demonstrating the distortion in the Pass amp when I go back to it.

Nigel, I noted in your Pass listening with Nick, you marvelled at the Pass sound. Well I am not selling my Pass just yet as I am still tuning my newer system and it acts as a checkpoint back to where I was before. Also with cost of living crisis, I probably cannot shift it for as much as I otherwise could before. But it will be going in due course.

Now I have not answered why an OEM would make a purifi sound worse. The right question is why use Purifi modules at all? The answer to that bit is two fold.

1) The Purifi is very cost effective for the performance it achieves, such that it enables higher SQ than traditionally offered at such a price point
2) You can try to make a traditional Class A or AB amp with similar performance, but the relative price (cost of production and what it needs to sell at) is a disaster.

Due to (2), manufacturers are queuing up with Purifi to use their modules as the main gain stage in their units, but then how is their brand differentiated from others doing the same?

The answer is the tuning of sound is intended to be by the input buffer. Whether using different opamps for the input gain, or discrete, or using a Linear Power Supply and huge reservoir of caps over the SMPS PSU. As Keith of Purite would put it, it's an effects box.

Purifi or specifically Bruno Putzey, intended the Purifi module to be a statement piece and set a new reference point as'is. He didn't skimp on achieving its best performance when using OPA1612 in the input buffer. It was chosen specifically because it's basically optimal, otherwise he would have chosen a different opamp. He conveys this in an interview on YouTube as well as explaining why he didn't design a discrete opamp instead.
Now, back to NAD et al... if the tweak results in something with better SINAD and more importantly a better IMD measurement, then it's an improvement.

But based on ASR measurements of Purifi Eval version and Purifi-based NAD version, the NAD SINAD appears too far adrift for the NAD to be better sounding. In the end, the stock Purifi always seems to be more signal, less noise and distortion. If somebody likes something else, and many will, then they like a type of distortion.
 
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This is just marketing. What does better mean? If it's engineered better it measures better and all tweaked versions like thise from NAD measure worse. Audiophonics do Purifi amps without eval board, but using recommended simple opamp input buffer that preserve Eigentakt character rather than colour.
I bought the NAD M33 not because I was impressed by measurements (nor my Avantgarde speakers for that matter), but simply because it sounded better than the numerous other amps I home demo's before settling on the NAD.

Perhaps (as with valve amps) a less-than-perfect set of measurements actually add to the character of the amp in a way that listeners enjoy more than a dull but "perfect" amp.

An extreme example of what I mean (and in fact what started my quest for a great sounding amp) is the Benchmark AHB2. I bought this amp unheard on a rave recommendation at the time I decided to move away from SETs. It was drearily dull, despite its excellent set of measurements and other great features such as adjustable gain. My disappointment with this amp started my search that ended with the NAD M33.
 

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I bought the NAD M33 not because I was impressed by measurements (nor my Avantgarde speakers for that matter), but simply because it sounded better than the numerous other amps I home demo's before settling on the NAD.

Perhaps (as with valve amps) a less-than-perfect set of measurements actually add to the character of the amp in a way that listeners enjoy more than a dull but "perfect" amp.

An extreme example of what I mean (and in fact what started my quest for a great sounding amp) is the Benchmark AHB2. I bought this amp unheard on a rave recommendation at the time I decided to move away from SETs. It was drearily dull, despite its excellent set of measurements and other great features such as adjustable gain. My disappointment with this amp started my search that ended with the NAD M33.
No doubt it sounds very good. I was not saying it id bad. It is still technically better than most amps available. But did you try the raw Eigentakt?

I've heard the same about the AHB2 though not heard it myself (yet). It has far less power than Purifi modules and too little gain to compare well against most amps.

Gain is an odd thing that I believe is often overlooked. Simply speaking, more gain tends to sound more dynamic, as long as there is plenty of power on tap. Most domestic amps are about 26db, Naim amps are 29db so double the energy of most amps while seeming a quarter as loud again for the same input voltage. The AHB2 has a maximum gain of 22db, so moves in the opposite direction with similar quieting or perceptually 'flattening' between louder and quiter musical sections, which is effectively what you labelled as 'dull'.

So don't be too concerned over what I said. The NAD is still way better than most amps at its price. You get far nicer casework, touchscreen operation, great software and MDC plugin modules.

Edit: I forgot the NAD M33 also has a respectable phono stage, which is a big plus if you have a vinyl system. All these extras add costs, and in the scheme of things the NAD is still keenly priced.
 
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Gain is an odd thing that I believe is often overlooked. Simply speaking, more gain tends to sound more dynamic, as long as there is plenty of power on tap.
My interpretation of "gain" is the amplification factor - voltage (or it power) in vs voltage out in dB. The AHB2 had plenty of gain for my speakers - in fact I used a lower than max setting. But the sound quality surely should be marginally better with a low gain? The noise level I suppose may be slightly greater if the amp itself (rather than what comes in front of it) generates noise. The AHB2 is just about the quietest amp around, so no trouble there.
 

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My interpretation of "gain" is the amplification factor - voltage (or it power) in vs voltage out in dB. The AHB2 had plenty of gain for my speakers - in fact I used a lower than max setting. But the sound quality surely should be marginally better with a low gain? The noise level I suppose may be slightly greater if the amp itself (rather than what comes in front of it) generates noise. The AHB2 is just about the quietest amp around, so no trouble there.
Yes, that's essentially the difference. But I look at it this way...

You can draw the gain slope on a graph of 'power in' on the x-axis and 'power out' on the y-axis. Such a graph is representative. In theory we should be discussing voltage, but in practice it's how much power is delivered that speaker sensitivity will convert to sound pressure level. And amps don't deliver voltage without some corresponding amount of current - may as well look at power.

If you have two amps with different gain levels, one will have a steeper slope and one will have a shallower slope.

However you then look at it, one amp will output more power for the same input power and be louder. It's known that if distortion is negligible, people choose the louder one as preferred. And it can also be said that one amp has more volume difference between loudest and quietest signal output relative to the other. So the one that swings more power is going to seem more dynamic and impressive.

The key here is in the known psychoacoustic properties... we tolerate a lot of distortion before really noticing it immediately, so loudness differences in music are going to play more of a factor in SQ perception. Longer listening may uncover one sounds purer than the other, but also less dynamic. It all depends on amp specs. Ideally we want to balance reasonable gain (26-30db) with avaialble power and as low distortion as we can achieve. There's going to be interplay between this, which is why just a stellar SINAD alone won't necessarily be the best sounding when it comes to amps. But if you've got stellar SINAD, oodles of power, and good to high gain, then the result will be good both in short term impressions and longer listening. As I understand it, NAD threw away some of Purifis quality in favour of delivering more power, so perhaps this measures worse but does actually meet the conditions I mentioned above to seem better side-by-side.

But it's £4k versus £1k, which is why I recommended base Purifi amps to the OP. That said, since the M33 has phono stage and streams, it's a nice solution and a bargain for the total of what it does.
 

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Audiophonics do Purifi amps without eval board, but using recommended simple opamp input buffer that preserve Eigentakt character rather than colour.

But it's £4k versus £1k, which is why I recommended base Purifi amps to the OP. That said, since the M33 has phono stage and streams, it's a nice solution and a bargain for the total of what it does.
Persuasive...
... but which specific amp(s) are you talking about here? I'm looking here https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/sear...&orderby=price&orderway=desc&orderway=descand can see stereo amps or monoblock pairs starting from €1349 which is £1100ish but we have to add import duties/VAT onto that. I'm not seeing any option here for a £1,000 Purifi Eigentakt amplifier. I have no pressing desire/need, otherwise I'd be quizzing you about the three stereo amps popping up via search for "Purifi".

Thanks.
 

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Persuasive...
... but which specific amp(s) are you talking about here? I'm looking here https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/sear...&orderby=price&orderway=desc&orderway=descand can see stereo amps or monoblock pairs starting from €1349 which is £1100ish but we have to add import duties/VAT onto that. I'm not seeing any option here for a £1,000 Purifi Eigentakt amplifier. I have no pressing desire/need, otherwise I'd be quizzing you about the three stereo amps popping up via search for "Purifi".

Thanks.
Hi,

Ok, I have the Audiophonics MPA-M400ET monoblocks.

Why monoblocks? Just because a stereo amp would be midway between speakers and need longer speaker cable. These use LM4562A opamp. i have other tangential reasons for monoblocks and it's not for better performance.

I would recommend a stereo amp version and try their default input buffer. They also sell the Sparkos/Sonic Imagery input buffers for a reasonable price which you can then swap out yourself should you want to. The stereo unit has more space for this, and I think you could try the Weiss input buffer too, but not sure. Personally, I would put the intended OPA1612 in mine if I could. The monos have too little space to try another input buffer and Audiophonics confirmed to me they had no plans to enable alternate input buffers on the monoblocks. If want to do that, I need to put the.monoblocks in to larger cases.

On the subject of price. Audiophonics show the EU price inc its 20% VAT. If you add these to a basket, go to checkout and indicate shipping to the UK, you will see the price is 20% less.

I paid 20% VAT in the UK and no duties for the category of audio amplifiers, so I paid about £1100 for 2 monos, but this was before inflation hit and the pound tanked, so I imagine it's costlier now.

Nord do Purifi with standard OP1612 for 1099 here: https://www.nordacoustics.co.uk/product-page/nord-three-1et400a-stereo-amplifier-1

I think the assumption is always the Sparkos or Sonic Imagery input buffer is better, but you can find plenty of people on fora who started with these, then heard and preferred the OPA1612 version - not being specific about Nord here, mainly US folk who tried VTV or Apollon Purifi-based amps.
 
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Hi,

Ok, I have the Audiophonics MPA-M400ET monoblocks.

Why monoblocks? Just because a stereo amp would be midway between speakers and need longer speaker cable. These use LM4562A opamp. i have other tangential reasons for monoblocks and it's not for better performance.

I would recommend a stereo amp version and try their default input buffer. They also sell the Sparkos/Sonic Imagery input buffers for a reasonable price which you can then swap out yourself should you want to. The stereo unit has more space for this, and I think you could try the Weiss input buffer too, but not sure. Personally, I would put the intended OPA1612 in mine if I could. The monos have too little space to try another input buffer and Audiophonics confirmed to me they had no plans to enable alternate input buffers on the monoblocks. If want to do that, I need to put the.monoblocks in to larger cases.

On the subject of price. Audiophonics show the EU price inc its 20% VAT. If you add these to a basket, go to checkout and indicate shipping to the UK, you will see the price is 20% less.

I paid 20% VAT in the UK and no duties for the category of audio amplifiers, so I paid about £1100 for 2 monos, but this was before inflation hit and the pound tanked, so I imagine it's costlier now.

Nord do Purifi with standard OP1612 for 1099 here: https://www.nordacoustics.co.uk/product-page/nord-three-1et400a-stereo-amplifier-1

I think the assumption is always the Sparkos or Sonic Imagery input buffer is better, but you can find plenty of people on fora who started with these, then heard and preferred the OPA1612 version - not being specific about Nord here, mainly US folk who tried VTV or Apollon Purifi-based amps.
I think even if you could get a Purifi-based amp for £1K it would be a pretty basic and unattractive package. Add to that a preamp, DAC, streamer, phone stage and maybe room correction DSP, plus a pile of interconnexcts and I can see that the £4K cost of the M33 could easily be reached - and it would still be a hotch-potch based on an EVAL board. I'll stick with the excellent M33 until I can convince myself that better sound with an equally good user-interface (control app) can be had for under about £10K! Peter
 

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I'll stick with the excellent M33 until I can convince myself that better sound with an equally good user-interface (control app) can be had for under about £10K!
Er, Roon!?

On a phone, tablet, PC. I paid £400 for life. I can change devices and still use it.

10k for a UI on top of top-tier SQ is a bit extreme. The M33 is a good price as it's a streamer, integrated amp with phono stage and Dirac at 4k. But 10k is defo not required, unless that's your expenditure inc speakers.
 

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Er, Roon!?

On a phone, tablet, PC. I paid £400 for life. I can change devices and still use it.

10k for a UI on top of top-tier SQ is a bit extreme. The M33 is a good price as it's a streamer, integrated amp with phono stage and Dirac at 4k. But 10k is defo not required, unless that's your expenditure inc speakers.
The trouble is (well it's not a trouble really), my speakers are currently priced at £34K. The total cost of electronics feeding them (M33) is a "meagre" £4K, so I'm sure the speakers should benefit from even better electronics.

If I want to upgrade, I have to look at improving upon the M33. This is likely to be in the £10K range, I fear. I've been thinking about:

1. Rose RS150B (streamer, DAC and pre) feeding a good power amp. Not my first choice
2. Rose RS150B or Aurender, etc feeding a good digital integrated such as Hegel H390/590
3. Roon Nucleaus feeding a good digital integratred
4. Keep M33 as streamer only (or even my M50.2) feeding one of these digital integrated

The digital integrateds (integrated with DAC) I've been considering are the Hegel offerings,, Mark Levinson 5802, Rotel Michi X3, Perreaux 200i, AVM CS 5.3, Copland CSA150, etc

If the Nucleus offers hgh enough streaming quality, this may be the neatest solution as it's not too costly (despite subscription) and the Roon app is first class. This feeding one of the digital integrated amps may prove a worthwhile upgrade.

What worries me most about the Nucleus is that it only spits out USB. This isn't the best digital connection for audio and limits the choice of amps that can be used.

I don't need tons of power as the speakers are highly sensitive (107 dB) and an easy load (18 Ohm). Any suggestions?
 
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So this morning I went to audition the ATC SCM40A's with the ATC SCA2 Pre-amp. I wasn't impressed at all - way way too bright for me, some tracks I tried were just unlistenable - Communication Breakdown by Led Zeppelin was like listening to shards of glass flying into my ears. If I was just going to play one type of music i.e. Jazz, then I suspect it would be a great listen as the clarity is excellent, but there is absolutely nowhere to hide with poor recordings.

Next up we hooked up the passive version of the ATC SCM40 to the Rega Aethos and what a difference! The sound was so much warmer and the bass more present. My wife and I spent some time trying various tracks and we both enjoyed the sound. There wasn't the clarity in the upper mid range when compared to some of the Neat speakers (or indeed the active version), but there was a nice tight bass and a more cohesive sound.

I was chatting to the dealer as we were on the way out and he suggested from my comments that it may be worth giving some Focals a listen. He didn't have any floorstanders in to try so we quickly hooked up a pair of Aria 906 to give us an idea of the Focal 'sound.'

I have to say we both liked them, they were a bit brighter in the top end than the ATC's but this was offset with a generally warmish sound and a nice low end.

Then the dealer threw a curve ball at me, Focal are doing a deal on the Focal Aria K2 Series for 3 weeks (2 weeks left). Trade in any working speakers and you get £1000 off the cost of the Aria K2 926 or £1500 off the Aria K2 936.

My current floorstanders are probably worth £100 - £150 max on a good day (Acoustic Energy Aegis Evo), so I'm thinking do I get a set of 936's - save myself some significant cash which will go to getting the rest of the system, and later on I can upgrade the speakers. This allows me to effectively get a damn site more money for my current speakers (that I will want to sell) than I could If i sold them myself, and get a half decent set of speakers for £2200 instead of £3700. When I want to upgrade, surely I wouldn't lose a huge amount of money on the Focals.

The dealer said he will get them in for me, I can audition them and if I don't like them, no problem, but if I do like them all he asks is that I buy them from him (the dealers lose out a fair bit on this promotion).

Obviously, these Focals are cheaper than the ATC's, ProAc D20r and the Neat Ekstras I've auditioned - but I did like the sound of the Aria 906 (and that was the standmount version).

Thoughts?
 

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