Building a new 2 channel system from scratch - advice?

Rockchild

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So this morning I went to audition the ATC SCM40A's with the ATC SCA2 Pre-amp. I wasn't impressed at all - way way too bright for me, some tracks I tried were just unlistenable - Communication Breakdown by Led Zeppelin was like listening to shards of glass flying into my ears. If I was just going to play one type of music i.e. Jazz, then I suspect it would be a great listen as the clarity is excellent, but there is absolutely nowhere to hide with poor recordings.

Next up we hooked up the passive version of the ATC SCM40 to the Rega Aethos and what a difference! The sound was so much warmer and the bass more present. My wife and I spent some time trying various tracks and we both enjoyed the sound. There wasn't the clarity in the upper mid range when compared to some of the Neat speakers (or indeed the active version), but there was a nice tight bass and a more cohesive sound.

I was chatting to the dealer as we were on the way out and he suggested from my comments that it may be worth giving some Focals a listen. He didn't have any floorstanders in to try so we quickly hooked up a pair of Aria 906 to give us an idea of the Focal 'sound.'

I have to say we both liked them, they were a bit brighter in the top end than the ATC's but this was offset with a generally warmish sound and a nice low end.

Then the dealer threw a curve ball at me, Focal are doing a deal on the Focal Aria K2 Series for 3 weeks (2 weeks left). Trade in any working speakers and you get £1000 off the cost of the Aria K2 926 or £1500 off the Aria K2 936.

My current floorstanders are probably worth £100 - £150 max on a good day (Acoustic Energy Aegis Evo), so I'm thinking do I get a set of 936's - save myself some significant cash which will go to getting the rest of the system, and later on I can upgrade the speakers. This allows me to effectively get a damn site more money for my current speakers (that I will want to sell) than I could If i sold them myself, and get a half decent set of speakers for £2200 instead of £3700. When I want to upgrade, surely I wouldn't lose a huge amount of money on the Focals.

The dealer said he will get them in for me, I can audition them and if I don't like them, no problem, but if I do like them all he asks is that I buy them from him (the dealers lose out a fair bit on this promotion).

Obviously, these Focals are cheaper than the ATC's, ProAc D20r and the Neat Ekstras I've auditioned - but I did like the sound of the Aria 906 (and that was the standmount version).

Thoughts?
It’s good you went for a listen, being honest, non of the speakers you mention are my cup of tea, your right about the ATC tho.

Are you being given the opportunity to try at home? This is where it really matters.
 

Jezzer

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So this morning I went to audition the ATC SCM40A's with the ATC SCA2 Pre-amp. I wasn't impressed at all - way way too bright for me, some tracks I tried were just unlistenable - Communication Breakdown by Led Zeppelin was like listening to shards of glass flying into my ears. If I was just going to play one type of music i.e. Jazz, then I suspect it would be a great listen as the clarity is excellent, but there is absolutely nowhere to hide with poor recordings.

Next up we hooked up the passive version of the ATC SCM40 to the Rega Aethos and what a difference! The sound was so much warmer and the bass more present. My wife and I spent some time trying various tracks and we both enjoyed the sound. There wasn't the clarity in the upper mid range when compared to some of the Neat speakers (or indeed the active version), but there was a nice tight bass and a more cohesive sound.

I was chatting to the dealer as we were on the way out and he suggested from my comments that it may be worth giving some Focals a listen. He didn't have any floorstanders in to try so we quickly hooked up a pair of Aria 906 to give us an idea of the Focal 'sound.'

I have to say we both liked them, they were a bit brighter in the top end than the ATC's but this was offset with a generally warmish sound and a nice low end.

Then the dealer threw a curve ball at me, Focal are doing a deal on the Focal Aria K2 Series for 3 weeks (2 weeks left). Trade in any working speakers and you get £1000 off the cost of the Aria K2 926 or £1500 off the Aria K2 936.

My current floorstanders are probably worth £100 - £150 max on a good day (Acoustic Energy Aegis Evo), so I'm thinking do I get a set of 936's - save myself some significant cash which will go to getting the rest of the system, and later on I can upgrade the speakers. This allows me to effectively get a damn site more money for my current speakers (that I will want to sell) than I could If i sold them myself, and get a half decent set of speakers for £2200 instead of £3700. When I want to upgrade, surely I wouldn't lose a huge amount of money on the Focals.

The dealer said he will get them in for me, I can audition them and if I don't like them, no problem, but if I do like them all he asks is that I buy them from him (the dealers lose out a fair bit on this promotion).

Obviously, these Focals are cheaper than the ATC's, ProAc D20r and the Neat Ekstras I've auditioned - but I did like the sound of the Aria 906 (and that was the standmount version).

Thoughts?
Sounds like a good deal to me. I went from ProAc to Focal and think my Focals have a smoother treble and warmer, fuller sound. Some decent reviews of the Arias kicking around.
 

hearhere

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Then the dealer threw a curve ball at me, Focal are doing a deal on the Focal Aria K2 Series for 3 weeks (2 weeks left). Trade in any working speakers and you get £1000 off the cost of the Aria K2 926 or £1500 off the Aria K2 936.
That sound a pretty good deal and if you liked the house sound of their smaller model, I think you should seriously consider the Aria K2 936s. Focal make great speakers.

Another great brand is Dynaudio. They've recently introduced a couple of active speakers but not the "traditional" type that ATC offers. Their Focus range of actives include the 30 and 50 floor-standers. These have built-in DAC, amps, XOs and will acceot analogue from your phono stage and digital from other sources, so no extra expense on new DAC or amps. They may have room correction DSP built in too, though I haven't checked. Dynaudio offer great passive speakers too of course

Just an idea if you could get a listen of one of these before going for the Focal bargain. Remember, there are always bargains to be had - if you loved the Focus 50 and told the Dynaudio dealer about the £1500 off Focal, he may well match it. Dealers can't afford to turn down any sale these days!

https://dynaudio.com/home-audio/focus
 
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Friendly Ghost

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I've always liked the 906's I had, switches mainly because I loved from an apartment to a bigger house.
I compared the normal 926's to the Proacs D20r and preferred the Proacs on jazz, voices. The Focals were better on Tool. The higher sensitivity made a difference there.
They're really good speakers, I don't think you'll be disappointed. I haven't listened to the K2 versions though. Different drivers so probably a different sound as well.
 

Wenge1

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As long as you like them when you demo them and then get them back to your room for a listen there and still like them then yes, the deal your being offered is attractive. But a listen in your own room is critical with respect to prospective speakers IMHO. In fact just the other day I liked some speakers I heard in a demo room but could not get on with them in my own room.
 

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Yes, a home demo would be a must, I wouldn’t buy a set of speakers without listening to them for an extended period at home. I understand the k2’s are a little more neutral than normal focals so not quite as bright, but would have to be sure as I believe bright speakers can be fatiguing in the wrong room.
 
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Metatron

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so I'm sure the speakers should benefit from even better electronics.

If I want to upgrade, I have to look at improving upon the M33. This is likely to be in the £10K range, I fear. I've been thinking about:

1. Rose RS150B (streamer, DAC and pre) feeding a good power amp. Not my first choice
2. Rose RS150B or Aurender, etc feeding a good digital integrated such as Hegel H390/590
3. Roon Nucleaus feeding a good digital integratred
4. Keep M33 as streamer only (or even my M50.2) feeding one of these digital integrated
What can I say... cost is no indicator of performance. The triple entente of SOTA low distortion with more than enough power and relatively high gain are.

You already have that. I know you have Avantgarde speakers but I don't know your room size. I suspect a larger than usual listening room.

Did you ever try Tune Audio Anima speakers at £35k? 109db/W efficiency horns, you could drive them insanely loud with next to no power, but ultra low distortion and standard to high gain would still work.

Of the items you mention, they may review as seemingly better than the M33, but I truly doubt they are.

It's easy to want even more, assume it means spending more, try something more expensive and hoodwink yourself that it is due to glowing reviews (press and forum folk alike) by expecting it. Maybe they're just different.

I suspect if you did such comparisons blind with somebody's help, you may end up re-selecting the NAD.

But your ears and means in the end.
 

Smonks

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With all this talk of the NAD M33....it's often auditioned against the Hegel H390 and have to say I am interested in hearing it too.

It's a lovely looking device and from what I read there are a couple of sonic differences between it and the Hegel but nothing that really puts one over the other.

It would give me a great streaming solution and an amp in one box, I'd just add a turntable via external MC phono stage and I'd have a complete and minimal system (ok, perhaps an Innuous later for ripping my cd collection too).

Has anyone auditioned/owned the M33 and the Hegel 390 - any views on one over the other. Is one more neutrsal/warmer or brighter than the other?

If I go with these Focals they drop down to 2.8ohms so it's needs a suitably powered amplifier to power them, but both amps have plenty of watts per channel.

If I look at it from a financial perspective then the M33 wins. The Hegel ideally needs a streamer for Tidal or Qobuz so that's an extra expense and it's the more expensive amplifier to begin with. M33 also has HDMI for hook up to tv and av bypass I believe (think the Hegel has av bypass but no hdmi but could be mistaken).
The Rega I've been using to audition speakers (may try the Focals on the Supernait 3 too) is £3300 I believe so that gives you £700 to spend on a DAC and streamer to bring it in line with the M33 - not sure you'd get a quality combination to match the functionality of the M33 in that price range?
 

hearhere

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Of the items you mention, they may review as seemingly better than the M33, but I truly doubt they are.

It's easy to want even more, assume it means spending more, try something more expensive and hoodwink yourself that it is due to glowing reviews (press and forum folk alike) by expecting it. Maybe they're just different.
I won't do that. Before selecting the M33 (in fact I chose its predecessor the M32), I home auditioned 12 amps, some much more coarly than the NAD. It was sound quality I most looked for and features / value for money. I plan on doing much the same for a possible upgrade - likely to be a 2-box solution rather than an all-in-one - and sound quality will still be the deciding factor.

I did the multi-amp tests with my old AG Unos, but I now use the more recent and more costly (and better) Duo XDs, so these will possibly benefit from better electronics.

You already have that. I know you have Avantgarde speakers but I don't know your room size. I suspect a larger than usual listening room.
Room diagram below. Acoustically a nightmare initially but now, with part-carpeting, curtains, furniture, etc) quite good, though the Martin Logans 13As I bought hated this room! Horns are likely the best TYPE of speaker though omnis could / sould be better. I auditioned omnis from German Physics and MBL a while back (in showrooms) but their imaging was not a patch compared with the horns - provided you sit in their small sweet spot!
 

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Metatron

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I won't do that. Before selecting the M33 (in fact I chose its predecessor the M32), I home auditioned 12 amps, some much more coarly than the NAD. It was sound quality I most looked for and features / value for money. I plan on doing much the same for a possible upgrade - likely to be a 2-box solution rather than an all-in-one - and sound quality will still be the deciding factor.

I did the multi-amp tests with my old AG Unos, but I now use the more recent and more costly (and better) Duo XDs, so these will possibly benefit from better electronics.


Room diagram below. Acoustically a nightmare initially but now, with part-carpeting, curtains, furniture, etc) quite good, though the Martin Logans 13As I bought hated this room! Horns are likely the best TYPE of speaker though omnis could / sould be better. I auditioned omnis from German Physics and MBL a while back (in showrooms) but their imaging was not a patch compared with the horns - provided you sit in their small sweet spot!
Well most of that sounds encoraging.

My first thoughts about the room is whether the glass wall forms a parabola? That would be problematic because sound reflections would converge at a focal point. If the focal point is outside the room, reflections heading towards there will all re-reflect off the flat wall and who know after that.

Certainly looks a nightmare. Even if one knows a fair bit about acoustics, that room is too complex to make guesses about. Really it needs a realistic computer model generated for it.

I suspect the ML ESL13A - a geat speaker - would have its room correction processing reach inappropriate conclusions. It probably assumes mostly rectangular rooms.

And I expect most room/speaker correction systems to assume the same.
 

hearhere

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Well most of that sounds encoraging.

My first thoughts about the room is whether the glass wall forms a parabola? That would be problematic because sound reflections would converge at a focal point. If the focal point is outside the room, reflections heading towards there will all re-reflect off the flat wall and who know after that.

Certainly looks a nightmare. Even if one knows a fair bit about acoustics, that room is too complex to make guesses about. Really it needs a realistic computer model generated for it.

I suspect the ML ESL13A - a geat speaker - would have its room correction processing reach inappropriate conclusions. It probably assumes mostly rectangular rooms.

And I expect most room/speaker correction systems to assume the same.
Yes, pretty much parabolic, though the speakers face across the room rather than towards the reflective centre. My theory is that the very directional nature of horns make this the best type of speaker. As it happens I already had AG Unos before I moved here. I suspect the MLs were unhappy because they need a wall reasonably close behind them to harvest some of the 50% of the energy being projected backwards. With 12 ft behind one and 15 ft behind the other, it just doesn't work despite the efforts of Anthem Room Correction that came with those speakers.

I took some measurements yesterday using a UMIK-1 mic with Dirac Live. The response curve is all over the place but the actual sound is remarkably good without the filter engaged. With the filter, it is significantly "different" but in my view, some of the music's liveliness is slightly reduced, so not in my view "better".

Unfortunately the XD correction software that's built into the AG's bass amps is so bloody complex with no "auto adjust", that I'm struggling to create a filter that makes a worthwhile improvement. I think I need to find an XD expert who can visit to see if he can create one.

Meanwhile I'm very happy my AG speakers. Peter
 

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I think its good to get to as many different dealers as possible as they will each have their favourite lines. For example if you nip from Leeds along the M62 to Hull Fanthorpes seem to specislise in PMC and Musical Fidelity amongst others, may not be right for you but good to widen the net.
 

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