Built in vs. external phono stage - door is open to opinions and even experience !

Clubsport911

Wammer
Wammer
Jan 19, 2013
1,814
241
108
Cheltenham
AKA
Steve
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
Just picked up a Quad Artera pre-amp, which by any measure / reviews has a pretty decent phono stage. I "upgraded" from a Quad Elite. FYI I have a crappy head cold atm (but on the decline) For the Elite, I used an Arkless GTI "Turbo" phono stage direct in at line level.

My thinking was to eliminate another potential source of noise / distortion and go direct into the Artera so that's the set up I have now. :)

I still have the Arkless, so can drop back in at any time, but more connections...less elegant etc..

I know this is a virtually impossible Q to answer, but generally would an external phono stage be "better" than built in ? the Arkless was optimised for the cartridge AT33-PTG/II and is MC only (a lot of components were removed) and I'm not able to measure actual performance.

By the way, I'm only too aware of the "marmite" opinions regarding the aforementioned phono stage... [some say good / some say bad etc]. I'm 3hrs into listening so willing to take on board ideas and even better, direct experience.

Thanks
 

lazycat

Wammer Plus
Wammer Plus
Dec 20, 2007
3,559
6,660
193
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
Even with my modest Denon amp a better phono stage was/is just better.

The internal stage is very good but bettered by my old Graham Slee, which was in turn bettered by my Avid Pellar.

It may seem odd to use a £900 stage with a £1400 amp but it's proved its worth.

And I did get the Pellar for £300 - one of my best hifi bargains.

Using a better stage has proved the opposite to 'a source of noise' etc.
 

DomT

Food and coffee and rock n roll
Wammer Plus
Jul 23, 2019
10,327
9,595
198
Village near Nottingham.
AKA
Dom
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
It’s a great question to ask. I have had a few amps with built in phonostages. Marantz PM11S2 and currently an Avondale modified Quad 44 and Audio Research SP17. These are all competent amps with competent phonostages. But I have always found a preference for an external stage be it my Dynavector P75 or Audion Premier or Trilogy 907.

That’s not to say that an internal phonostage cannot be good but they are typically built to a price and cartridge matching is essential. I do use the internal phonostage in the Quad 44 in the studio because any external stage picks up hum from the studio gear and only an internal stage remains silent.

If I think about the phonostage in my Audio Research SP17 vs my Trilogy 907 stand alone stage they they are quite different and would appeal to different people. The ARC has better timing and more ‘life’ and the Trilogy majors on delicacy and filigree detail. So as ever it just depends. Have a listen to a few options and see what you think.
 

Jules_S

Wammer Plus
Wammer Plus
Jun 7, 2019
3,383
1
4,507
183
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
^^^ What he said. :) There are amps with very competent phono stages built in, including some of the 70's vintage Japanese stuff, when build quality was off the scale and CD wasn't around. But we are talking about very small signals, easily corruptible with interference and a reasonably modest separate phono stage can deliver a better result by virtue of being A/ dedicated to the task of handling and processing the signal and B/ external to the amp's electronics and therefore more isolated from a source of noise. Probably obvious, but stick a decent phono around the £1000-ish price point up against most built-in stages and it would probably wipe the floor with them. (always exceptions of course, but in general)

I guess the question is, are you dissatisfied with the performance of the Artera? If not, enjoy what you have. If / when you feel there's deficiencies, there's no shortage of choice of phono stages to consider, and with the AT I'd expect that you could quie easily find a good match
 

Sotosound

Wammer
Wammer
Aug 27, 2014
887
732
98
Buckinghamshire
AKA
Ian
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
In my previous set-up, I used a NAD 1000 with built-in phono stage. Then I purchased a separate Edwards Audio MC1 phono stage, which was so much better.

Then I replaced this combo with a Croft Micro 25 preamp with built-in phono stage. That phono stage is essentially, however, the now-discontinued Croft RIAA phono preamp which, by all accounts, is superb. And I can say that the inbuilt version of that Croft phono preamp wipes the floor with the Edwards Audio MC1.

So my answer has to be "It all depends." and I would suggest that the only way to work this out for yourself would be auditions.

And, personally, I wouldn't worry about adding extra noise or distortion as there are arguments either way. From my perspective, it's components that should be separated being packed closely together in a single casing versus the impact of additional power supplies and interconnects and, in the end, it will just come down to what sounds better.
 

audio_PHIL_e

audioPHILe
Wammer
Jul 21, 2020
13,379
1
10,393
163
The wrong planet
soundcloud.com
AKA
Phil
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
Nice things about separate phono stage:
  1. You can change one without upsetting the rest of your system
  2. You can switch sources and control volume at line level
  3. you have more choice of power amplifiers
 
  • Like
Reactions: Sotosound

Ergot

Newbie
Wammer
Oct 15, 2022
72
75
38
Wiltshire
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
As Phil says, separates give you flexibility but I’ve heard some superb sounding integrated phono stages recently, a home audition is always the best option
 

Ergot

Newbie
Wammer
Oct 15, 2022
72
75
38
Wiltshire
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
Which ones have you heard?
Lots as i’ve been to two hifi shows in the past couple of months, but i’ve lived with a Croft Vitale (lovely rich and musical if constrained soundstage) and a Radford ZD22 (great timing, wide soundstage and full of detail, no noise at all) the latter bettered a number of modern options i’ve had over the last three years
 
  • Like
Reactions: DomT

toms wait

Wammer
Wammer
May 20, 2015
4,824
1
4,608
148
Lancaster
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
The Triode Corp amp has a phono, and it sounds fine to me, less boxes and wires and connections. No reason to try again and I've had a few external phonos.
EAR 834P, WAD, Parks Audio, Cambridge, and a hand built one by Paul Hynes.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DomT

rabski

Everything in moderation
Staff member
Dec 2, 2006
32,873
1
26,119
173
Kettering
AKA
Richard
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
It's an impossible question to answer. Some built in phono stages are superb, some are awful. Some standalone phono stages are superb, some are awful.

To me, the major benefit of external stages is flexibility, as even with a serious range of adjustments, some phono stage + cartridge combinations simply don't ever sound right. It's generally a lot less costly to swap a phono stage than an integrated amp.
 

Rockchild

Formerly Radiant Red 🎶
Wammer Plus
Jun 22, 2011
10,723
15,277
208
Launceston UK
AKA
Jonathan
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
It's an impossible question to answer. Some built in phono stages are superb, some are awful. Some standalone phono stages are superb, some are awful.

To me, the major benefit of external stages is flexibility, as even with a serious range of adjustments, some phono stage + cartridge combinations simply don't ever sound right. It's generally a lot less costly to swap a phono stage than an integrated amp.
Flexibility is key for me too. We have a choice today and years ago, 80% of cartridges were MM so matching was much easier.
 

Nifkin

Wammer
Wammer
Apr 4, 2019
987
714
113
Highgate London
AKA
Simon
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
I put the Creek Sequel mk4 phono stage into my Creek 100A and it sounds amazing: I haven't heard a sub-£1k outboard phono stage that betters it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Friendly Ghost

uzzy

Grumpy Old Git
Wammer
Apr 16, 2006
8,565
4,633
158
NN38TA Northampton
AKA
David
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
I haven't a clue .. I bought an Audio Research preamp as it sounded fab on the phono stage and as I use a Decca the fact it is only MM was not a problem.

Would it be possible to get even better sound using a dedicated off board phono preamp? Possibly, BUT I love the sound I get so I cannot be arsed trying a host of externals in a search for something that my ears tell me I do not need.
 
  • Like
Reactions: paraheadache

purpleaardvark

Wammer
Wammer Plus
Oct 16, 2009
325
37
93
Esher, , United King
AKA
Raj
I had the same question when getting my new preamp. David Coe of AD Audio was building me a Satchmo preamp and I asked if it made any difference if he puts the phono stage in the preamp or a separate box. He was of the opinion it would be fine in the Satchmo and I’m a box down and a happy bunny
 

DomT

Food and coffee and rock n roll
Wammer Plus
Jul 23, 2019
10,327
9,595
198
Village near Nottingham.
AKA
Dom
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
The thing with comparisons is that if you don’t listen to any, and are happy with what you have, then what you have is obviously the best. But when it comes to phonostages there is a lot of choice and they sound quite different and are are cartridge dependant and so one person’s medium rare steak is another persons haddock.
 

Clubsport911

Wammer
Wammer
Jan 19, 2013
1,814
241
108
Cheltenham
AKA
Steve
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
The thing with comparisons is that if you don’t listen to any, and are happy with what you have, then what you have is obviously the best. But when it comes to phonostages there is a lot of choice and they sound quite different and are are cartridge dependant and so one person’s medium rare steak is another persons haddock.
Haddock / Steak - like the phrase
 
  • Like
Reactions: DomT

Latest posts

Forum statistics

Threads
113,444
Messages
2,451,263
Members
70,783
Latest member
reg66

Latest Articles

Wammers Online