Cable musings

[SergeAuckland]

grimep wrote:

I came across the Roger Russell speaker wire article a few months back, which was a welcome view from an industry insider who doesn't have a vested interest in cable sales in one way or another. One thing I'd love to have explained having read it is why aren't there ever any facilities in shops to instantly switch between cables in order to make proper comparisons? Do such switches exist off-the-shelf? By the time you've physically swapped connections and restarted a track, you've no chance of making an accurate comparison. Which leaves me, in my own cynical way, suspecting that they don't want you to make an accurate comparison, and would rather let psychology come in to play when considering making an expensive purchase. Having said that, part of me still wonders if using different speaker cable would make a difference in my system!

http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

Those of us of a certain age will remember when HiFi shops had Comparators, so you could switch between pickups, amplifiers and 'speakers. They fell out of favour at about the same time as magazines started on subjective reviewing, and Linn started their "single speaker demos" campaign.

Any shop that wanted to do this could very easily, using a pre-amp with identical line inputs, and simple Y splitter from the output of a CD player. However, as you rightly say, they don't want you to.

S.

 

[oldphrt]

mr.me wrote:

I certainly can't add to the technical debate about cables but what I can say is that in some instances changing cables can make a big difference.My example is when fellow wammer "how much it cost" Bob came to my house as a critical listner to my system and though he was generally appreciative he also found that there were some aspects of the sound that could be improved.

This left me thinking as to what might be the problem so to start somewhere I decided to replace my diy speaker cable for some, not expensive, Silver High Breed 8 awg cable and viola! It made my system open up with greater definition and an overall much more enjoyable sound. I realized then that with my diy cables the systen just sounded sat-on.

So, certainly in this instance, the cables made a significant difference to the sound of my system.

Not scientific but a fact nevertheless.

Yep, thick speaker cables always work better than thin ones.

 

[Camverton]

SergeAuckland wrote:

grimep wrote:

I came across the Roger Russell speaker wire article a few months back, which was a welcome view from an industry insider who doesn't have a vested interest in cable sales in one way or another. One thing I'd love to have explained having read it is why aren't there ever any facilities in shops to instantly switch between cables in order to make proper comparisons? Do such switches exist off-the-shelf? By the time you've physically swapped connections and restarted a track, you've no chance of making an accurate comparison. Which leaves me, in my own cynical way, suspecting that they don't want you to make an accurate comparison, and would rather let psychology come in to play when considering making an expensive purchase. Having said that, part of me still wonders if using different speaker cable would make a difference in my system!

http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

Those of us of a certain age will remember when HiFi shops had Comparators, so you could switch between pickups, amplifiers and 'speakers. They fell out of favour at about the same time as magazines started on subjective reviewing, and Linn started their "single speaker demos" campaign.

Any shop that wanted to do this could very easily, using a pre-amp with identical line inputs, and simple Y splitter from the output of a CD player. However, as you rightly say, they don't want you to.

S.

Those were the days :^ . The problem for the shop is that in some cases, at least with cables, the customer won't notice any difference and when they do the difference will not be worth the price. No such problem with speakers and amplifiers as my last auditioning session revealed. The snag is that equipment can sound so different in your own home that such auditioning can only be of value in narrowing down choice for a home dem. Funny enough, differences are invariably more marked at home when I can relax and enjoy the music.

 

[rabski]

SergeAuckland wrote:

Those of us of a certain age will remember when HiFi shops had Comparators, so you could switch between pickups, amplifiers and 'speakers. They fell out of favour at about the same time as magazines started on subjective reviewing, and Linn started their "single speaker demos" campaign.Any shop that wanted to do this could very easily, using a pre-amp with identical line inputs, and simple Y splitter from the output of a CD player. However, as you rightly say, they don't want you to.

S.

To be fair Serge,if we assume that cables sound different (and I am, please note NOT making that assumption) that the wiring inside the 'comparator' and between the comparator and whatever it's connected to would also have an effect. This would be a poor experimental setup as it would introduce another variable.

I can't see any option other than a straightforward, properly constructed blind test. But even this introduces other variables, such as the time factor not allowing for an instantaneous change. The closest I've come to this is a couple of occasions here, and at other wammers'. Every time it's been done, I'm utterly certain I've heard big differences at first (sighted), but have been unable to hear any differences (unsighted). On that basis, I got rid of virtually all my wanky wires and now use stuff that is decently constructed, has decent physical properties (resistance to contact corrosion) and looks pretty.

 

[mr.me]

oldphrt wrote:

mr.me wrote:Yep, thick speaker cables always work better than thin ones.

Is that a fact? Then how come my diy cables were actually much a thicker gauge than the ones I used to replace them

 

[oldphrt]

mr.me wrote:

oldphrt wrote:

mr.me wrote:Yep, thick speaker cables always work better than thin ones.

Is that a fact? Then how come my diy cables were actually much a thicker gauge than the ones I used to replace them

It is a fact.

 

[mr.me]

oldphrt wrote:

mr.me wrote:

oldphrt wrote:

mr.me wrote:Yep, thick speaker cables always work better than thin ones.

Is that a fact? Then how come my diy cables were actually much a thicker gauge than the ones I used to replace them

It is a fact.

Well, that's half the question answered

 

[oldphrt]

mr.me wrote:

oldphrt wrote:

mr.me wrote:

oldphrt wrote:

mr.me wrote:Yep, thick speaker cables always work better than thin ones.

Is that a fact? Then how come my diy cables were actually much a thicker gauge than the ones I used to replace them

It is a fact.

Well, that's half the question answered

The second part would be speculation. Would you like me to speculate?

 

[SergeAuckland]

rabski wrote:

SergeAuckland wrote:

Those of us of a certain age will remember when HiFi shops had Comparators, so you could switch between pickups, amplifiers and 'speakers. They fell out of favour at about the same time as magazines started on subjective reviewing, and Linn started their "single speaker demos" campaign.Any shop that wanted to do this could very easily, using a pre-amp with identical line inputs, and simple Y splitter from the output of a CD player. However, as you rightly say, they don't want you to.

S.

To be fair Serge,if we assume that cables sound different (and I am, please note NOT making that assumption) that the wiring inside the 'comparator' and between the comparator and whatever it's connected to would also have an effect. This would be a poor experimental setup as it would introduce another variable.

I can't see any option other than a straightforward, properly constructed blind test. But even this introduces other variables, such as the time factor not allowing for an instantaneous change. The closest I've come to this is a couple of occasions here, and at other wammers'. Every time it's been done, I'm utterly certain I've heard big differences at first (sighted), but have been unable to hear any differences (unsighted). On that basis, I got rid of virtually all my wanky wires and now use stuff that is decently constructed, has decent physical properties (resistance to contact corrosion) and looks pretty.

I agree about the blind test, but whoever or however it's done, there will always be those that object about the methodology and the validity of the results. Even doing what I suggested above, using a pre-amp and Y splitter, there would be those that would question the sound of the Y splitter, whether two pre-amp inputs can ever be identical, and anything else that comes to mind.

S.

 

[pluto]

SergeAuckland wrote:

I agree about the blind test, but whoever or however it's done, there will always be those that object about the methodology and the validity of the results. Even doing what I suggested above, using a pre-amp and Y splitter, there would be those that would question the sound of the Y splitter, whether two pre-amp inputs can ever be identical, and anything else that comes to mind.

This always brings to mind a question that arises when people attempt to invalidate ABX testswith the argumentthat the cabling which has to form part of the test rig itself invalidates the test.

The question is this: if correctlyspecified cables are not transparent, how long do they have to be to cause sonic degradation?

If cables (used correctly) are anything other than transparent, is the degree of degradation proportional to the length, the square of the length, its cube or what??? Or does the mere presence of a millimeter of an alien cable "blight" the validity of the test?

Logic tells us that any degradation [degradation == loss of transparency] is related to length, therefore to what degree will a test be compromised bya few centimetres of high quality cable inserted in the test rig? The answer: none at all.

 

[Sastusbulbas]

Is it worth considering cable manufacturers may well doctor cables so to speak to sound attractive, IE address their LCR values?

I think it's a shame manufacturers do not always give their wares actual LCR values as a component specification.

Sadly though, there will always be some of the "this side/that side" mentality which lengthens the distance to understanding why some cables in some systems may produce different audible results.

I myself would like to believe Van Damme is all I need, I would also like a better solder iron and better soldering skills but then I would get anxious over silver solder versus standard. :cs:

 

[wickfut]

I've just swapped out a pair of 3m VDH CS122 for a 5m pair of Furakawa things and my hi fi now sounds totally shit.

I don't care if people say cables don't work, my highs have gone splashy and the rest of the frequency range sounds 2d flat and lifeless.

I'm going to have to buy some 5m lengths of VDH

or maybe the other thing that doesn't exist suddenly does - cable break in

 

[It Cost How Much!?!]

oldphrt wrote:

mr.me wrote:

oldphrt wrote:

mr.me wrote:

oldphrt wrote:

mr.me wrote:Yep, thick speaker cables always work better than thin ones.

Is that a fact? Then how come my diy cables were actually much a thicker gauge than the ones I used to replace them

It is a fact.

Well, that's half the question answered

The second part would be speculation. Would you like me to speculate?

Not really, as your bias is clear... :roll: :roll: Clearly all people who think cables make any difference are completely mad in your eyes and your ramblings. Obviously you have a measure that, the thicker the cable the better, so I look forward to you using some high voltage power cables soon then...?

In Mr. Me's case, he has a great system and the cables were holding the components back when I listend to his system. Mr.Me is now happier with his system, so end of story really.

 

[Sastusbulbas]

You seem to forget that as long as audio kit measures correctly it all sounds the same, and anyone who thinks some kit offers higher resolution than other kit is clearly batty.

Take speakers, If one was thick enough and only had to guess, if its an 8 ltr cab with a 4" driver then any 4" driver which operates with the same cone excursion and electrical parameters as the original will sound the same. It's only a 4" cone pushing air is it not?, or is that too old or stupid a view?

And if there is a difference, is it not because your listening for a difference you are hearing one?

 

[skalpol]

SergeAuckland wrote:

Further down he goes on to talk about skin effect. Irrelevant at audio frequencies. He states that copper has a skin depth of 0.47mm. That means that each conductor needs to be more than 0.94mm diameter before skin effect starts having an effect at 20kHz. What individual conductor is ever almost 1mm diameter? Multistranded cables have strands one tenth of that, and I know that they are bundled together, (Litz wire has individually insulated strands) but that means they don't act entirely as one solid core.

Twaddle.

 

[ronc]

What, Serge's views or the ones he is disagreeing with?

 

[It Cost How Much!?!]

Sastusbulbas wrote:

You seem to forget that as long as audio kit measures correctly it all sounds the same, and anyone who thinks some kit offers higher resolution than other kit is clearly batty.Take speakers, If one was thick enough and only had to guess, if its an 8 ltr cab with a 4" driver then any 4" driver which operates with the same cone excursion and electrical parameters as the original will sound the same. It's only a 4" cone pushing air is it not?, or is that too old or stupid a view?

And if there is a difference, is it not because your listening for a difference you are hearing one?

Do you really mean this or are you trying to wind people up? The 4" driver thing was quite funny.

 

[grimep]

Do these cable debates always go like this?! I guess you are bound to get polarised points of view.

Well, guess I'll be sticking with Canare / Van Damme. If its good enough to be used at the recording source, its more than good enough for me. I used to have a home studio which I kitted out with what I thought of as expensive Klotz pro cable. When I got more interested in HiFi my jaw hit the floor when I saw what some cables cost. On the other hand, expensive interconnects and speaker cable must provide an important source of cashflow to HiFi shops and the manufacturers, so from that point of view I guess it has an important role to play. I want HiFi shops to be viable businesses and they employ some very good people, so if cable helps them stay afloat, that's cool with me.

I once spent an hour in my own living room trying to hear the difference between a pair of £80 interconnects and the Quadlink in my system. At first I thought I could hear something, and even though I was in the unpressured environment of my living room, it took an hour before I decided I couldn't hear one. I eventually realised the difference I heard was completely psychological, I actually wanted to hear a difference and felt kinda stupid when I couldn't. In a way I also felt dissapointed that the Quadlink didn't sound better than the interconnects, as it is balanced and runs at a higher voltage than standard phonos. I know this anecdote proves nothing about cables, but does illustrate the way our perception is influenced by psychological issues, such as wanting to hear a difference, or feeling that we should hear a difference. And without a way of instantly switching between cables, its pretty well impossible to decide. I find the argument that a comparator would introduce an extra element to the sound patently ridiculous.

 

[ronc]

grimep wrote:

Do these cable debates always go like this?! I guess you are bound to get polarised points of view.

I know what you mean. It is disappointing. James seems to be one of the worst offenders, which I don't understand (you'd think, as the owner, he'd want to encourage a better atmosphere). It is the descent into insult and abuse on threads like this that makes people like me either not bother posting or even not bother visiting. I don't mind people making their mind up (in either direction) but I don't need to read posts implying that only the stupid haven't yet come to the correct (i.e. their) point of view.

If it carries on in this vein (the forum, not this thread) then I'll be calling it a day. I come on to sites like this to pick up ideas, share experience and collectively celebrate music and hi fi, and that seems to be departing.

 

[Sastusbulbas]

It Cost How Much!?! wrote:

Sastusbulbas wrote:

You seem to forget that as long as audio kit measures correctly it all sounds the same, and anyone who thinks some kit offers higher resolution than other kit is clearly batty.Take speakers, If one was thick enough and only had to guess, if its an 8 ltr cab with a 4" driver then any 4" driver which operates with the same cone excursion and electrical parameters as the original will sound the same. It's only a 4" cone pushing air is it not?, or is that too old or stupid a view?

And if there is a difference, is it not because your listening for a difference you are hearing one?

Do you really mean this or are you trying to wind people up? The 4" driver thing was quite funny.

Sorry Bob I was being sarcastic, as the above is not too far off a simple view of what some seem to expect here.

Cables still being debated is just one of them, aparently they all sound the same or don't and any audible difference is imagined even if it is constructed differently and has different LCR values.

And of course most cables are re-branded RS stuff.

Anyway I for some reason thought the 4" driver would be funny as it is not far off what the cable debate insinuates LOL