Cartridge Setup

lostwin

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That sounds about right, yes. On lifting off, the cantilever returns to its "unloaded" position, which is back to the left. Getting these videos is such a faff, I can't face doing another one! But I visually checked it and confirmed that's the case, although the actual degree of movement seems to be less (I know that doesn't make sense, unless the cantilever never reaches its original position). I assume that's just my eyes and perception.

So which is the correct way to adjust for this? 
It's a new technique for me too but try to imagine it more from the what is happening to the body of the cartridge as that is what is effectively moving due to the sylus being held in place by the groove of the record. By adding bias you are causing the cartridge body to pull away from the spindle so the cantilever seems to deflect more towards the centre. As I read, what you are trying to achieve is no deflection of the cantilever as it is raised from the record.

 

bigfool1956

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I tend to check on various parts of the record, because the force created by having an offset headshell is larger on the outside where the linear speed is greater, and you're looking for a happy medium. Having said that, as the pull is causing the arm to move in slightly even on the inner grooves, I would say that you need a tad more bias.

Basically the record pulls the stylus along a line that matches the stylus, which is of course not through the arm pivot, but through a point to the right of the pivot when you look at the arm from the front. It is this offset pull that causes a turning moment which you are trying to counter with bias. Bias is never correct in absolute terms because the drag varies with the music and also how far in the stylus is towards the centre. Luckily for us we can hit a happy medium where it all works pretty damned well.

Imagining that, you can see that if the bias is too little the arm will drift inwards, causing the stylus to move to the right (looking at the front), and if it's too much the arm will want to drift outwards causing the stylus to move to the left. Think of it as a hinge.

The final arbiter is by ear of course, but the reason I advocate checking by sight first is that in my experience you can find what appear to be sweet spots even when the bias is way out. It's just that when you find the right spot you realise that you were being hoodwinked :D  

The reason test records are not great for setting bias is that the high constant tone of the most difficult cuts causes way more drag on the stylus than a normal music program. This will lead to over-biasing.

Generally if the bias is close to correct then listen for sibilance, and if it's more to the right hand channel then you need a touch more bias, and if it's more to the left hand channel then you need a touch less, assuming the singer is centrally placed. Also list to some well defined kick drum, such as on Talking Heads True Stories and see if it's nice and central or not.

I'm also strongly of the opinion that azimuth is much more important than VTA, and with arms with no offset pivot like the Origin Live arms and my Audio Note arm the two are intrinsically linked. Raising the VTA will cause the cartridge to cant slightly to the left and lowering it will cause the opposite. With my Arm 1 I used Audacity to determine the best point for crosstalk, which is where the generator is aligned (and hopefully the stylus in a well made cartridge). This process solved a lot of my harshness and sibilance issues.

It looks to me like the cart is slightly canted to the right in the video, but of course it's hard to be sure from that.

 

Jules_S

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David, thank you, that's one of the clearest explanations I have heard. :^  The sibilance I hear is, to my ears, relatively central when playing music LPs rather than a test disc. The bias tracks on the test disc did suffer from break-up on the right channel rather than the left - I increased the bias and found that it lessened, but did not go away completely before the left channel started to show the same issues, so I backed it off a fraction again and accepted that this was probably as good as I was going to get with the cartridge I have.

Given what you say about the dual-pivot arms I'll try making some tiny adjustments to VTA - I've not played with that since I did the initial alignment. I set the initial height by eye but could do with making some final tweaks, I suspect. The overall tonal balance seems to be fairly even (allowing for the room acoustics and the rest of the setup) and there's decent punch and imaging so I don't want to mess around too much and ruin what I have.

Talking of ruining things, after reading a variety of articles and opinions online, I am now absolutely paranoid that every play of an LP is damaging it if I've not got this alignment spot-on. Paranoid enough, in fact, to have not played some the things I've bought recently, just in case. True, or scaremongering? I know they're going to wear out eventually with enough plays, but I'd rather not shorten their life any more than necessary! 

 

Jules_S

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Not quite a "Thread from the Dead", but from the dormant, perhaps...

I'm tearing my hair out with this. Having spent a couple of hours playing around with the bias again, I got to the point where I could detect no actual difference, better or worse, on the sibilance issue regardless of how I set it. There was, however, a benefit in clarity and (to a lesser extent) focus when backing it off a little, making it easier to hear into the mix.

I reduced the VTA by a quarter of a turn, i.e. giving a very slightly tail-down attitude on the arm and found much improved bass, both in quality and quantity. Again, there was improvement in the imaging, as though I'd put a squirt of Windowlene across it and given it a polish, removing a sense of "haze". The image width also seemed improved, as if the performers weren't squashed together so much. However... still no improvement in sibilance.

I decided to re-check the basic cartridge alignment, having convinced myself that I'd not got the protractor properly aligned first time. To my surprise and a little shock, I realised that the stylus wasn't actually fully pushed home into the body of the cartridge! There was a couple of fag-paper's gap between the two parts. How that happened I don't know, must have been ham-fisted when I fitted the cart to the new arm. Additionally, I think I was right that I'd not quite managed to align the protractor correctly to the centre of the arm pivot, it was a fraction out I think.

Considering these two problems I ended up moving the cartridge forward very slightly in the arm slots, so it's now not pushed fully back "against the stops", as it were. I think it's now better aligned than before.

I re-checked the setup with the HFN test disc for bias, taking into consideration the advice above (so using it as a start point rather than an absolute). I backed off the bias to as little as I could, and gradually increased it a fraction at a time until it would track the +16dB (second to last) track OK, although it won't do the +18dB track. I decided not to increase bias any further, but to use that as my start point for fine-tuning by ear. I also re-checked the horizontal and vertical resonance - vertical looks to be around 11Hz, horizontal begins at 10Hz and peaks at 9Hz down to 8Hz. Is that too low?

Anyway, putting on a brand new (but cleaned) LP afterwards (Years & Years "Palo Santo"), I noticed that the treble in general seemed a little "hot". And as for that sibilance? The very first track on each side (it's a double album) seemed OK, but from about the middle of track 2 onwards it seemed rear it's ugly head again, although I wouldn't necessarily say that it got continually worse. It just seemed to appear.... and stay at a level. 

Swapping to an older pressing - Fleetwood Mac "Mirage" still displayed that slightly hot treble - not quite sure exactly how to describe it but perhaps "feathery" might be appropriate? It's not cut-your-ears-off bad but I can imagine that many people on this forum with an aversion to brightness would run from the room. Dynamics seemed particularly good on the opener "Love in Store", the drums having real impact and tonality, and the imaging was also very good, with that hear-through ability I value so much. The sibilance issue didn't seem quite so bad on this recording, but it was definitely still there, especially towards the end of each side.

Texas "The Conversation" (which is an awful recording and abundant in sibilance anyway, even the CD version suffers) did sound better than it had before, but still had a splashy top end and of course, the dreaded sssssss-word was there for all to hear.

So I've made some improvements overall, but not in the one thing I'm trying to fix! What on earth could still be the issue? I'm too scared to adjust that damned bias again!  :D  And on the evidence of earlier, it didn't really make much difference anyway. Bringing the VTA down improved the bass and imaging, but didn't really make any difference otherwise... unless it's responsible for that brighter top end too? I was of the understanding that lowering the VTA tended to favour bass over treble, and that raising it would brighten things.

I've been wondering about azimuth. It's one of the potential causes listed on the Soundsmith website and is something that's non-adjustable (well, not user-adjustable) on the OL arm. I was wondering about trying one of the OL cartridge enablers to allow some adjustment to be made - thoughts on this one please?

Am I just going to have to accept that I'm perhaps particularly attuned to sibilance and that I'm never going to get rid of it completely? It does make me wince sometimes, and despite your reassurances, David, I'm still paranoid about the records!

 

lostwin

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I think we had similar threads running at the same time a few weeks ago. You are in a better position than me as I still can’t clear the second tracking test track and my resonant frequencies are all over the shop despite changing carts...

How are you measuring VTF? If you are using electronic scales are you putting these on the platter or next to? They tend to measure too light unless you can get them at LP height. Have you experimented with VTF above the recommended value to see if this helps?

 
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Jules_S

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Yes Richard, we did indeed have the same or similar issues. It's frustrating isn't it, to be so close yet so far...

On the advice of a number of fellow Wammers I measured VTF using my digital stylus gauge, positioned at the side of the platter on a stack of Ikea drinks mats, such that the measuring platform was at the height of an LP placed on the platter. In truth though, when I checked the results against just placing the gauge directly on the platter, there was only a fractional difference. I've read somewhere that the height makes more of a difference if you have a tonearm with an underslung counterweight. I don't so couldn't confirm. I'm tracking at 1.9g now, which is the top end of the recommended scale. I did originally have it at 2.0g but have brought it down slightly as the sound (sibilance aside) was somewhat "heavy" and slow.

I'm determined to plough on and resolve this as best as I can, but following today's adjustments I seem to have traded better bass and imaging for worse treble. And precious little change in sibilance. I just dug out a copy of Belinda Carlisle's "Live Your Life, Be Free" as I expected it to be the sort of recording that suffered with siblance, and yes, it was. Awful sound, overly bright and "essssssy".

I shall have no hair left at the end of this!

 

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I wouldn't worry too much about test tracks if I were you Jules, in all my years I have never used a test disc & certainly don't think my many set ups have suffered for it.

Also, some vocalists do have more sibilance than others, do you have any instrumental tracks to check if the treble is still hot when there is no singing?

 

Lurch

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Jules, I would say yes to the cartridge enabler.

I had one thrown in free when I bought the Conqueror, fitted it for the hell of it and glad I did as it's allowed me to tweak the azimuth.  Whilst it's only 1 mm thick the fact that it gives you 0.5mm angular adjustment by changing cartridge bolt tension, this is more than sufficient to dial things in.

If you want, I can pop over and give you a hand, and also bring the Dr Feikhert alignment gauge I grabbed on AoS Friday.

 
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bigfool1956

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I recently dropped my Denon DL-110 into my system after losing the diamond off the cantilever off my AT33ptg/ii. A quick set-up to check that it would work as expected through my MC only phono stage (the DL-110 is 'high' output, but my phono stage can easily cope).

Anyway, the point is that I was getting similar symptoms to yourself, and the reason was because the DL-110 is a much taller cart than the AT33. I think your problem is that you have actually gone too far with the tail down. 

 
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lostwin

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Great offer from John (Lurch). Nothing better than an experienced pair of ears for a second opinion once you get to this stage. He will be familiar with your arm as well.

 
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Jules_S

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I wouldn't worry too much about test tracks if I were you Jules, in all my years I have never used a test disc & certainly don't think my many set ups have suffered for it.

Also, some vocalists do have more sibilance than others, do you have any instrumental tracks to check if the treble is still hot when there is no singing?
After listening to the advice of so many of you on here I'll say that, although I am still using the test LP, I'm only treating it as a "starter for 10" position, and then I will use whatever judgment I've gained, plus all your advice, to finish the job off.

Tomorrow when I'm feeling a bit fresher I'll fling on Rodrigo y Gabriela - no vocals but plenty of "excitable" highs with the guitars, which are relatively close-miked in places. I also have other instrumental stuff I can choose that's a bit more mellow, so I'll try some of that. I confess I did select albums today that I thought would exacerbate the situation, and they did... marvellously!

 

Jules_S

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I felt as though I was getting nowhere fast yesterday so have decided to begin again.

First things - I made the following mistakes with my setup adjustment yesterday:

  • I forgot to disconnect the bias when doing all the rest of the setup, which probably invalidated it.
  • I have finally (!) managed to get a decent light positioned next to the turntable, shining where I want it on the platter, so I can now see properly where the tip of the stylus is going. And it's not where I thought it was! Seems I was looking at the end of the cantilever and not where the actual diamond touches the surface, hence when positioning it on the alignment gauge it wasn't in the centre of the "crosshair".
  • I think the gauge was also incorrectly aligned, i.e. not quite pointing to the centre point of the pivot. It's really tricky doing this as I'm reliant on getting the point of an arrow printed on the gauge, across the gap between platter and arm, and across to the pivot. I used a ruler to try and help me get it where it should be, of course you have to take into consideration the parallax effect from distance and angle so even then it's not easy.
  • With no bias applied to the cartridge, each time it's lowered onto the platter the arm and body moves out very slightly, causing the cantilever to deflect inwards.

Starting again from first principles, I used the Linear Offset technique as I've done all along so far, which involves aligning that arrow on the template with the centre of the arm pivot. I then checked the cartridge against the crosshair point on the gauge and discovered that the stylus tip was in front of the crosshair, not on it as I'd thought. So this required the cartridge to be pushed further back in the slots again, although not right back to the end as I'd first had it. Having got the stylus to sit in the crosshair correctly I also noticed thanks to my new close-up photos that to get the cantilever to sit true to the gauge markings I had to twist the cartridge body slightly so that it's not 100% aligned with the headshell.

I tightened and re-checked the alignment, then checked it again using the Two-Point Technique on the gauge, just to see how close it was. The innermost point is in almost the same position so not surprisingly the alignment was pretty good. To my pleasure the outer point alignment was also pretty close.

I then checked and re-adjusted the VTA setting, bringing the arm back up to level. I was careful to ensure that the alignment protractor was vertical and also parallel to the length of the arm.

Re-checking the TVF, I note from my previous attempts that I've not noticed any fundamental difference in the readings on my gauge based on its height above the plinth. I have read somewhere that this variance is more obvious when using an arm with an underslung counterweight, which the OL Encounter isn't. Last time I tried this using different heights I think there was about 0.03g difference or something like that. So going for it (!) I just set it on the platter and measured from there - 1.95g.

So far so good, I think! Now comes the continuing problem with the bias, but this time I did things differently. Going on the advice given here and on the Soundsmith website about bias test tracks being too hot for bias setting, I used the technique of putting the stylus in the blank part between the groove on the run-out and watching it, hoping for a gentle inward drift.

However what I discovered is that even with the very minimum amount of bias applied, the stylus just sits there stationary, and is eventually caught up by the lead-out groove. I repeated this exercise using the blank spaces between the tracks on the HFN test disc to see if the behaviour was consistent across the surface, and it wasn't. On the blank spaces further to the outside edge there was a slow pull towards the centre, but by the gap between tracks 7 & 8 the behaviour changed, and the stylus just sat there. I tried disconnecting the bias altogether again and repeating the test, just to see what would happen. This time as expected the arm swung in quite quickly even in the lead-out groove.

So... what does all this mean? Accepting that bias should vary across the playing surface, i.e. should ideally decrease slightly at the inner tracks to counteract the natural decrease in centripetal force, I don't know if this minimum bias value I can apply is too much or too little. Ideally I think I need a slightly lighter weight on the end of the bias thread, so I could move it further out on the adjustment bar and still apply less than the current minimum. Does that make any sense? I don't think OL make a lighter weight though, so I'd have to get one from elsewhere. It also begs the question why I would be coming across this difficulty anyway, is it something to do with the arm / cartridge matching? It weights 6.3g (7.6g with the fixings, apparently) so it's quite light. Could that have an effect?

This is beginning to really get me down now. Should I carry on playing LPs with the minimum bias or have I got something really wrong here and just stop?

@Lurch I will take you up on your offer of checking everything with the Feickert - I'm going to get hold of that cartridge enabler first as that will require another realignment anyway, then perhaps we can go through this all again. I'll PM once I have it and see if we can get a date in the diary.

I've got a couple of videos - not sure if they're watchable as I've had to compress the life out of them to get them under 2Mb for posting. This first one shows the beahviour in the lead-out groove with minimum bias applied, the arm does not drift at all but is eventually picked up by the groove and moved


View attachment IMG_8423.mov


 

Jules_S

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This second vid shows the behaviour in blank parts of the playing surface further away from the centre - the first blank gap shows that the arm does slowly move in, but in the next gap which is closer to the centre, it stops doing that and just sits there


View attachment IMG_8422.mov


 
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rdale

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This second vid shows the behaviour in blank parts of the playing surface further away from the centre - the first blank gap shows that the arm does slowly move in, but in the next gap which is closer to the centre, it stops doing that and just sits there


View attachment 63303
Great explanations of your setup process!
 

I would think that if you set a stylus on a blank part of a record and then see if the bias compensation tends to pull the arm nearer or further from the pivot, that you are measuring the friction between stylus and flat surface that needs to be overcome. I don’t think that can be equated with the stylus tracking a groove and the right amount of bias for that, as there isn’t a need to overcome friction in that case.

 

Jules_S

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Great explanations of your setup process!
 

I would think that if you set a stylus on a blank part of a record and then see if the bias compensation tends to pull the arm nearer or further from the pivot, that you are measuring the friction between stylus and flat surface that needs to be overcome. I don’t think that can be equated with the stylus tracking a groove and the right amount of bias for that, as there isn’t a need to overcome friction in that case.
Thank you for the compliment! I try to make things as clear as possible to eliminate as many questions or confusion as possible... but then I end up typing "war & peace" posts! :D

As I understand it there would be more friction for a stylus in a groove as the sides of it would be (hopefully) in contact with the groove side walls, whereas on the flat surface only the very tip would be in contact, so surely in theory there would be less, not more friction? In any case, as I understand it the difference in the forces involved between the flat surface and the groove are small enough not to be significant. Also I'm not sure how much of an effect (what magnitude) friction has compared to the natural centripetal force applied to the arm as a result of the headshell offset. In any case this setup is a start position to be fine-tuned by ear, rather than treated as absolute.

Azimuth is not (user) adjustable on OL arms. As mentioned in my earlier post I'm going to try one of the OL cartridge enabler gadget thingys, which by the nature of the material does allow for small azimuth adjustments. Although fitting this is going to involve re-alignment of the cartridge again anyway,  I was hoping to at least get the setup fundamentally right now so that I'll have a better idea of what to do when I repeat the exercise. But this bias issue is making me scratch my head.

 
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gwernaffield

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hi i cannot see how you can set the bias if the azimuth of the diamond is not in the center of the groove, i had a similar problem , i found out the diamond on the cantilever  was not central , after several test lps, and the use of a fozgometer , even on the flat surface the diamond would be out , to set that i had to pack one side of the cartridge , to get a reading the same off the fozgometer , i have no problems with the bias now ,

 

Lurch

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Jules, to help with the bias I have a double album that only uses 3 sides for music so has a completely blank side. Will bring that with me along with the Feikart and the rest of my setup tools. 

Should have your cart singing sweetly within an hour. 

 
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lostwin

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Thank you for the compliment! I try to make things as clear as possible to eliminate as many questions or confusion as possible... but then I end up typing "war & peace" posts! :D

As I understand it there would be more friction for a stylus in a groove as the sides of it would be (hopefully) in contact with the groove side walls, whereas on the flat surface only the very tip would be in contact, so surely in theory there would be less, not more friction? In any case, as I understand it the difference in the forces involved between the flat surface and the groove are small enough not to be significant. Also I'm not sure how much of an effect (what magnitude) friction has compared to the natural centripetal force applied to the arm as a result of the headshell offset. In any case this setup is a start position to be fine-tuned by ear, rather than treated as absolute.

Azimuth is not (user) adjustable on OL arms. As mentioned in my earlier post I'm going to try one of the OL cartridge enabler gadget thingys, which by the nature of the material does allow for small azimuth adjustments. Although fitting this is going to involve re-alignment of the cartridge again anyway,  I was hoping to at least get the setup fundamentally right now so that I'll have a better idea of what to do when I repeat the exercise. But this bias issue is making me scratch my head.
I feel your pain - sounds like you are stuck in the same loop as I am on set up.  I am beginning to suspect something out of my set up control such as my arm bearings but then I am having different symptoms to those you are getting. Was there any improvement on sibilance following your last changes?   

 

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