Commercial Interests

[DUVET]

HI with the show fast approaching I would like to set out some ground rules . If anyone exhibiting as an enthusiast plans to use the room for some commercial gain, be that their own product or being asked to promote someone else's I would ask they run this by the show team first .

Danny

 

[TheFlash]

Good shout.

I bought "Uncle Peter's" vintage Thorens/Quad/Tannoy system for the purposes of sharing something different and plan to sell it after the show (although these Tannoys...). I was planning on making it clear that the system would be available at the end of show day to anyone who was smitten, saving both of us the hassle and risk of shipping etc. A win-win and all that.
Does this count? It might be a good test case for what counts as "for commercial gain" if nothing else!

 

[Hap Hazzard]

I would say by your own admission above you say that you are offering something different but I’m sure lots of people may have already heard Thorens, Quads and Tannoys. Buying the system just to sell it on I would say that that would just be a personnel gain if you intend to sell it for more than you originally bought it for.
This may not be a commercial sale, all be it that you would be using the Wigwam event to maximise the amount of customers that may want to buy it.

I would suggest that if this is your intention that any profit that you make above what you payed for the system that you donate it to the charity that the Wam event may be supporting this year , this may also help with the sale if you advertise this.

Maybe with the show teams agreement your lowest starting cost of the system should be advertised in the room stating anything above that cost goes to charity, so technically it would be an auction.

The highest bid should always be advertised throughout the day as they are made and a closing time also advertised for the last bid to be received.

Of course all this is just my opinion and the show team may not want their event to be used like this.

 

[Nopiano]

Commercial gain implies it is your business. Personal gain is selling something you own. Isn’t it?

 

[Hap Hazzard]

Yes, but the show is a commercial event, hence you would need their consent to do anything within their event / control.

 

[TheFlash]

I would say by your own admission above you say that you are offering something different but I’m sure lots of people may have already heard Thorens, Quads and Tannoys. Buying the system just to sell it on I would say that that would just be a personnel gain if you intend to sell it for more than you originally bought it for.
This may not be a commercial sale, all be it that you would be using the Wigwam event to maximise the amount of customers that may want to buy it.

I would suggest that if this is your intention that any profit that you make above what you payed for the system that you donate it to the charity that the Wam event may be supporting this year , this may also help with the sale if you advertise this.

Maybe with the show teams agreement your lowest starting cost of the system should be advertised in the room stating anything above that cost goes to charity, so technically it would be an auction.

The highest bid should always be advertised throughout the day as they are made and a closing time also advertised for the last bid to be received.

Of course all this is just my opinion and the show team may not want their event to be used like this.

Thanks for your “advice” and your generosity on my behalf. While I’d happily give say a £50 charity donation out of any financial gain, I’m not going to be sitting down with a calculator and working it out and then handing over any excess. Of which there might actually be none given spend trajectory…

I didn’t buy the system “just to sell it on”; I can use eBay for that. I bought it out of curiosity, to fettle (or get fettled by people who know what they’re doing), to share something “different” (apparently not), and then to sell on.

Finally, as Nick @Nopiano says, this would not constitute commercial gain. It would be personal gain. You might have a problem with gain of any sort but my hifi fund has benefited over the years from this, to the point where I now have a system I wouldn’t have been able to afford without sensible experimentation. I’ve probably heard more kit in my own home than many, and it’s been fabulously rewarding in aural terms - it’s been financially rewarding too but modestly so and as nice side effect.

Glad to have provided a case study anyway!

 

[DUVET]

Commercial gain implies it is your business. Personal gain is selling something you own. Isn’t it?

or promotion of someone else's business.

 

[TheFlash]

or promotion of someone else's business.

Cheers Danny. That will do nicely!

 

[Nopiano]

or promotion of someone else's business.

Indeed, I wasn’t meaning to exclude that!

 

[Hap Hazzard]

Thanks for your “advice” and your generosity on my behalf. While I’d happily give say a £50 charity donation out of any financial gain, I’m not going to be sitting down with a calculator and working it out and then handing over any excess. Of which there might actually be none given spend trajectory…

I didn’t buy the system “just to sell it on”; I can use eBay for that. I bought it out of curiosity, to fettle (or get fettled by people who know what they’re doing), to share something “different” (apparently not), and then to sell on.

Finally, as Nick @Nopiano says, this would not constitute commercial gain. It would be personal gain. You might have a problem with gain of any sort but my hifi fund has benefited over the years from this, to the point where I now have a system I wouldn’t have been able to afford without sensible experimentation. I’ve probably heard more kit in my own home than many, and it’s been fabulously rewarding in aural terms - it’s been financially rewarding too but modestly so and as nice side effect.

Glad to have provided a case study anyway!

Hi Nigel,

Firstly I don’t have a problem with gain of any sort as you have stated above and I too have benefitted from buying and selling hifi gear privately.

I personally have no problems with what you want to do ( it’s not my event) and I’m sure your intentions / belief is honourable in offering something different.

I was looking at it from the event organisers point of view being , what if I also wanted to show one of my systems to people on the proviso that I was offering something different ( a lot of systems are different) and it was for sale after the show. From the organisers point of view it could be seen that we where using their event to sell one our personal set ups via their event. Then if other people decided to do the same , it could then be seen as an event / a place to just sell your unwanted curiosity bought gear.

If I remember right the Wam show has a bring and buy sale and a percentage of that sale is donated to a charitable cause, would your scenario not fall into that event category ? You are bringing and selling your personal belongings ( hifi) for personnel gain ( maybe, depending on your spend trajectory)

Please remember it costs all exhibitors money out their own pockets to do this event, I have exhibited several times myself over the years

 

[TheFlash]

If I remember right the Wam show has a bring and buy sale and a percentage of that sale is donated to a charitable cause, would your scenario not fall into that event category ? You are bringing and selling your personal belongings ( hifi) for personnel gain ( maybe, depending on your spend trajectory)

You mean personal not personnel. I’m happy to contribute as I said. But you’re mistaken. I’m not primarily bringing and selling in the same way as the bring-and-buy, I just thought it might be a potential win-win amongst consenting adults. I’m primarily, predominantly, overwhelmingly, first and foremost, bringing the system to share the noises it makes. If selling it at the show causes anyone’s nose to twitch, I’ll do it separately afterwards. From Danny’s response, I don’t think this is the case.

The system is very different for me but perhaps you’re right that it might not really that different for many attendees.

 

[Hap Hazzard]

My bad spelling

Like I said Nigel it’s not my event, only my opinion (with a business head on) if the organisers say it’s ok then it certainly won’t ruin my visit there on the day. and anything you give towards charity is got to be a good thing.

 

[bencat]

If you as Nigel has have paid for a room and have cobbled sorry carefully curated a system to show in a room I think you have already shown your not there to just sell on a number of items . Danny as being in this case a member of the management seems quite happy with the arrangement and Nigel has been upfront and transparent about what he is doing . Sort of a nothing to see here , move along thing .

We all want the show to work and we all want it to make a profit in some way . The bring and buy room if included in the show (not sure if there is room for it but all will become clear soon I am sure) is another way of getting a little extra money for the charity we nominate and in the past a modest percentage of each sale was donated though quite a few in the past brought items and donated the sale . So in a spirit of glasnost it might be nice if anyone selling a major item for as has been indicated personal gain that they a bring one or two minor items to sell in the bring and buy with the agreed percentage going to charity ?

I know that this as has been said would not be needed but it would be the nice thing to do .

 

[Hap Hazzard]

The decision has been made Andrew.

I’ll probably cobble a system I don’t want ( thats why I’ll be selling it ) together next year and flog it at the show for profit obviously with the event organisers consent. Hopefully I’ll make enough or some money back to cover the costs of a great weekend with it and i might give some money to charity if there is any left over.

This to me seems like a great idea and it may even catch on moving forward. I don’t know if my reasons will be acceptable I could say I’m offering something different In a very nice way.

The Wam spirit lives on !

 

[DUVET]

Also no-one might buy it

 

[Jessica_k]

I plan as I planned 3 years ago to bring my home system. This consists of my own and commercially available Alpha2delta phonos’s and preamps. I will not be selling any during the show but by being there it will obviously promote the products.

I am very active in bake offs all over the country and help to promote the bake offs, always taking parts of my system including things I think are great products, and not financial gain.

If I am breaking rules by doing this please let me know. Surely by having this show we are all promoting products.

Jessica

 

[DUVET]

Jessica

I will think on this but don't worry for the time being .

Dan

 

[TheFlash]

The decision has been made Andrew.

I’ll probably cobble a system I don’t want ( thats why I’ll be selling it ) together next year and flog it at the show for profit obviously with the event organisers consent. Hopefully I’ll make enough or some money back to cover the costs of a great weekend with it and i might give some money to charity if there is any left over.

This to me seems like a great idea and it may even catch on moving forward. I don’t know if my reasons will be acceptable I could say I’m offering something different In a very nice way.

The Wam spirit lives on !

There is no need for this sarcastic post. You made your point earlier. Obviously you have issues you need to deal with; I suggest you do that in private rather than bringing your agenda here. Or raise your concerns with me by PM and I’ll make my feelings clear.

 

[simon g]

I realise that it's an increasingly rare commodity, but let's just exercise some common sense here and cease with the over analysing.

Clearly, if there are members of the trade present who have paid to be present, then they would not take kindly to other manufacturers (possibly competing) equipment being promoted in member's rooms free of charge (i.e. the 'commercial gain' referenced). By that I mean, having been provided FOC, or lent, with the purpose of promoting that brand or equipment. It is obviously not 'promoting' a brand merely to have one of a manufacturers items in your own kit, if it's an item that is already, or previously, a part of that system. Members are are there to demonstrate their systems. It seems eminently sensible to me not to allow those demonstrations to become product/manufacturer demonstrations. There has been some chatter about 'borrowing' or being lent kit by manufactures to use in systems; that clearly is using those products for commercial gain.

What Nigel is proposing is eminently ensible. There is, it seems to me, no difference between turning up at Nigel's, hearing the kit and then buying it. The only change is the change in venue. I'm sure there may well be others who arrange to use the Show as a rendezvous for kit that's been sold, bought, etc.

On the wider point of making money from buying and selling hifi; that is entirely down to the individual and his/her relationship with the tax man. I always sell my kit at more than reasonable prices because I can't be bothered with hassle. I often see my items being sold by others for more; good luck to them. Items aren't offered on here on the basis of 'this must be sold on at the same or lower cost'. That is, frankly, a ludicrous proposition. Everyone is free to buy and sell their own kit at the price they feel appropriate.

 

[DUVET]

^^^^^^^^^ @simon g
Excellent post