Could it be Majik

[Ray Vardy]

Hey

I am running an active system made up of Majik -

DSM/3 streamer
6100 amp
Aktiv Cards
K400 speaker cable
M140 speaker (on Linn's own upgraded base plates)

The DSM is running the Bass Drivers and connect with the 6100 via a pair of Audioquest Yukon RCA.

Both DSM & 6100 are on the same dedicated double power socket, this upgraded as was the electrical feed back to the fuse box, ie no other devices on this ring main.

Oh by the way I am using Tidal & Qobuz for content.

So speakers are around 33cm from the back wall & 165cm apart (centre of tweeter to tweeter) and I am seated at around 190cm away (tweeter to ear). The wall behind my seating position is around 47cm from my ears..

Whilst I can say, to my untrained ears at least, the system sounds ok (SO. has been a life saver, with it switched off music was simply appalling) I am finding that it is still only certain music where I think "Yeah this is good" and usually only if playing at higher volumes, for example, Yello's Toy album.

'The problem i have' is still with the bass, for example listening to Dire Straits Money for Nothing or even Christine and the Queens, Chris album (Girlfriend) - here it sounds like the bass woofers out of phase or a low pass filter stopping them going any lower than I dunno let's just say 300hz.

Whatever the case it feels as though the bass woofer is doing very little with the majority of music. I don't know what for example m109's sound like but I'm imagining that's what I'm listening to so very often here.

Maybe its room modes working against me, SO. not correctly configured, my own bias, or simply that I'm expecting too much from the system I really don't know.

Then whilst my gut is telling me that what I have should sound somewhat better, I'm in the next breath wondering whether adding a 2100 amp on to the bass woofers would help 'fix the problem'..

... If not, then it would put me on track for a Selekt later, right? Then, maybe then, I might get the enjoyment that I'm currently thinking I might / should from a system at half the price.

I know i need to listen to other speakers with the same music to make a more informed judgement of what I have and or ask other 'music lovers' to come visit to give me their opinion before just throwing more money at it.

Cheers.

 

[HansBertil]

I don't think adding a M2100 will make a big difference. In my opinion the speakers placement in the room is crucial. Switch SO off and find the optimum placement (likely already done). Then apply SO, but very gently by playing around with the preference slider. You'll likely find som bass out of this exercise. In my case the SO result straight out of the algorithm always is too aggressive on the bass but can be tamed with altering the preference slider.

 

[Solanum]

Can you clarify the setup? You have the eight channels of power amp required for the speakers, but you don't list an Exaktbox nor Aktiv cards. Which are you using? How is it set up in Konfig?

Can you actually use the Majik DSM pre-amp and two (of eight) channels of power amp at the same time? I would have thought the timing would be out unless you use the pwrin, in which case I think the pre is cut off?

You only have two outputs on the Majik, are you daisy-chaining on/in the M6100?

 

[Pennypacker]

Well, the problem I had with the M140 was untamable bass, which was sorted with SO. The problem you have seems to be the other way around and I don’t think it will be sorted by adding amps.

Please check if your bass port is not obstructed by any of the soft damping material inside the speaker, whenever the x-over board is take out en re installed the material needs to be pushed to the side of the port and sometimes it will end up in front of the port and it will close the port essentially making it a closed baffle system.

In my experience being precise with by setup SO endend up in a really good sound for both my past M140 and Keltik without the need to touch the sliders, In two different rooms.

My current Kudos Super20a needs the slider to be 50/50 instead of default 20/80

It also occurs to me you have a somewhat smaller listing room and the speakers relatively deep in the room, you could als push them closer to the back wall where you would here more effect of the bassport and then apply SO from that point on.

 

[Tendaberry]

Actually I do think adding a 2100 for the bass would bring an improvement. I had a 6100 for bass and upper bass on my Akubariks (+ another one for the 3K) and exchanged the bass 6100 for a 4100 and was pleasantly surprised by the improvement. And the 2100 is even better.
Now the amp driving the bass is sharing the power supply with the streamer/pre-amp-section of the DSM. But also do try to optimize the speaker position further, because that's essential. Adding an Akurate DSM or Klimax DSM would of course improve things even more...

 

[Jail4CEOs2]

Let's check your setup. With Aktiv 140's you should have prodigious bass.

First, disconnect the RCA's to the 2K's in both speakers. Now play your Yello track, or their Oh Yeah. Are you getting bass from both speakers? Now remove the upper RCA's to the amp and compare the lower, then upper bass drivers. In all these conditions, are they relatively equal left right? I've had Aktiv Kardz go bad. If a Kard is bad, this reduces your bass output by 25%.

By doing this we've checked the amp and Kardz are working. Now let's swap speaker wires a bit. Again, always make sure things are in phase. Change the wires from the MDSM to the 6100 and vice versa. Any perceived differences now between upper and lower mid/bass output? There should be as difference I think as they do have different outputs, but all should be working approximately the same levels.

Someone will come along and correct me, but I think the amp in the MDSM can be disabled. Go into the online Linn app and make sure the amp in the MDSM is outputting. If it wasn't, that would be a fifty percent drop in output. This pair not working might not be noticeable, as the two driven by the 6100 would still be making bass.

My bi Aktiv Ninkas made big bass in my mid sized room, SPACE or no SPACE. All 140's I've heard have had lots of good solid bass. I'm convinced you have a connection issue. I can't imagine any room mode that could suck up what Aktiv 140's produce.

Thre are tiny knobs under the RCA outputs of a 6100. Are those set wrong? They shouldn't be at zero if I remember correctly. Can anyone shed light on this. If these are wrong you could have seriously attenuated output.

 

[Ray Vardy]

Can you clarify the setup? You have the eight channels of power amp required for the speakers, but you don't list an Exaktbox nor Aktiv cards. Which are you using? How is it set up in Konfig?

Can you actually use the Majik DSM pre-amp and two (of eight) channels of power amp at the same time? I would have thought the timing would be out unless you use the pwrin, in which case I think the pre is cut off?

You only have two outputs on the Majik, are you daisy-chaining on/in the M6100?

I have Aktiv cards so now noted that.
I am using all 8 channels of power..
If asking about the rca, yes just one pair from DSM to 6100.

 

[Ray Vardy]

Let's check your setup. With Aktiv 140's you should have prodigious bass.

First, disconnect the RCA's to the 2K's in both speakers. Now play your Yello track, or their Oh Yeah. Are you getting bass from both speakers? Now remove the upper RCA's to the amp and compare the lower, then upper bass drivers. In all these conditions, are they relatively equal left right? I've had Aktiv Kardz go bad. If a Kard is bad, this reduces your bass output by 25%.

By doing this we've checked the amp and Kardz are working. Now let's swap speaker wires a bit. Again, always make sure things are in phase. Change the wires from the MDSM to the 6100 and vice versa. Any perceived differences now between upper and lower mid/bass output? There should be as difference I think as they do have different outputs, but all should be working approximately the same levels.

Someone will come along and correct me, but I think the amp in the MDSM can be disabled. Go into the online Linn app and make sure the amp in the MDSM is outputting. If it wasn't, that would be a fifty percent drop in output. This pair not working might not be noticeable, as the two driven by the 6100 would still be making bass.

My bi Aktiv Ninkas made big bass in my mid sized room, SPACE or no SPACE. All 140's I've heard have had lots of good solid bass. I'm convinced you have a connection issue. I can't imagine any room mode that could suck up what Aktiv 140's produce.

Thre are tiny knobs under the RCA outputs of a 6100. Are those set wrong? They shouldn't be at zero if I remember correctly. Can anyone shed light on this. If these are wrong you could have seriously attenuated output.

Arg, Gain Controls, will have to read about that but can't find the manual for 6100 only the 2100 which states

GAIN adjustment
For increasing or reducing the gain. IMPORTANT - only for use
when a Linn AKTIV module is fitted to the channel. If no AKTIV
module is fitted, always leave set to 3 (default gain setting).
If an AKTIV module is fitted, this adjustment can be used to finely
tune the AKTIV system to match the room acoustics.

 

[Jail4CEOs2]

No Ray, I've got you. A picture is worth a thousand words.

No RCA's!

You are not feeding anything but the first channel.

It's sort of weird, but this is the best way I can explain it. You come out of the preamp section of the MDSM and into the 6100. Then you need to distribute the signal within the amplifier, so it is a daisy chain. You go into the first RCA, like you've done, usually the super tweeter first. Then you have to take the signal and distribute it to the other channels within the amp by going to another RCA, and then going from the out of the super tweeter RCA to the in of the tweeter hole. Then you go out from the tweeter hole to the last one, which in your case will be the correct mid-bass driver. By doing this you have brought the signal to each channel in the amplifier and its card. You have distributed the full signal from the preamplifier to each of the Aktiv cards, which have then separated out their necessary spectrum, and sent it down the speaker wire.

Right now you have only sent the signal to the first channel whatever that is? Perhaps the super tweeter? And of course you're also putting a signal out of the MDSM, so you are feeding only two of the drivers of each speaker. The other two channels have not received any signal from the preamp, so our producing no sound down their speaker wires. Do you understand how the signal has to flow through the amplifier?

So you are going to need six more RCA cables. Aktiv turns into spaghetti behind an amp. In my earlier note, it was 3:00 a.m. in the morning here in Taiwan, so I wasn't thinking clearly and asking you incorrectly about RCA jacks. But your picture snapped my brain into focus. You need to daisy chain the signal through the amplifier in order to provide signal to the speaker outputs of each channel of amplification.

 

[Jail4CEOs2]

Arg, Gain Controls, will have to read about that but can't find the manual for 6100 only the 2100 which states

GAIN adjustment
For increasing or reducing the gain. IMPORTANT - only for use
when a Linn AKTIV module is fitted to the channel. If no AKTIV
module is fitted, always leave set to 3 (default gain setting).
If an AKTIV module is fitted, this adjustment can be used to finely
tune the AKTIV system to match the room acoustics.

See my above longer edited version

 

[Jail4CEOs2]

Unless you have the internal jumper cables as he does here.

 

[Jail4CEOs2]

He briefly discusses my RCA jumping, but he has shown internal jumpers. I never had the jumpers, I only used RCA externally. Please open the amp case and take a photo of the internals so we can see if you've got internal jumpers. I dunno what hell may be unleashed if you have BOTH internal jumpers and external RCA at the same time.

 

[Ray Vardy]

No Ray, I've got you. A picture is worth a thousand words.

No RCA's!

You are not feeding anything but the first channel.

It's sort of weird, but this is the best way I can explain it. You come out of the preamp section of the MDSM and into the 6100. Then you need to distribute the signal within the amplifier, so it is a daisy chain. You go into the first RCA, like you've done, usually the super tweeter first. Then you have to take the signal and distribute it to the other channels within the amp by going to another RCA, and then going from the out of the super tweeter RCA to the in of the tweeter hole. Then you go out from the tweeter hole to the last one, which in your case will be the correct mid-bass driver. By doing this you have brought the signal to each channel in the amplifier and its card. You have distributed the full signal from the preamplifier to each of the Aktiv cards, which have then separated out their necessary spectrum, and sent it down the speaker wire.

Right now you have only sent the signal to the first channel whatever that is? Perhaps the super tweeter? And of course you're also putting a signal out of the MDSM, so you are feeding only two of the drivers of each speaker. The other two channels have not received any signal from the preamp, so our producing no sound down their speaker wires. Do you understand how the signal has to flow through the amplifier?

So you are going to need six more RCA cables. Aktiv turns into spaghetti behind an amp. In my earlier note, it was 3:00 a.m. in the morning here in Taiwan, so I wasn't thinking clearly and asking you incorrectly about RCA jacks. But your picture snapped my brain into focus. You need to daisy chain the signal through the amplifier in order to provide signal to the speaker outputs of each channel of amplification.

I am using the internal jumpers.
All channels are running.

I will explore the channel gain adjustment though as that could be something

 

[Solanum]

I'm with @Jail4CEOs2 this is surely setup, not amp quality per se.

As suggested above, check all the channels one by one - making sure they are talking to the correct speaker driver (I'd leave everything 'hot' to ensure you aren't affecting the amp setup and just disconnect the relevant speaker cables prior to switching on), check the internal jumpers (and cards) are fitted correctly in the 6100. Do all this with SO turned off.

You are using channels 1 and 4 for the input, does that match the way the internal links are set (1-3 and 4-6 presumably)?

If you have another pre-amp or can borrow one, switch the MDSM to pwrin and use only the power amp stage (+the M6100 of course) as you can be sure all the timing is correct. Maybe Linn Helpline (or @ThomasOK) can confirm that using the line out from the MDSM and the MDSM speaker connections - rather than pwrin, doesn't affect timing/phase of the MDSM internal amps vs external amps?

I assume the links on the M140 are removed or you'd be having something horrible going on!

 

[Pennypacker]

Actually I do think adding a 2100 for the bass would bring an improvement. I had a 6100 for bass and upper bass on my Akubariks (+ another one for the 3K) and exchanged the bass 6100 for a 4100 and was pleasantly surprised by the improvement. And the 2100 is even better.
Now the amp driving the bass is sharing the power supply with the streamer/pre-amp-section of the DSM. But also do try to optimize the speaker position further, because that's essential. Adding an Akurate DSM or Klimax DSM would of course improve things even more...

Sure enough adding separate amps with separate PSU is beneficial, although it won’t correct a suck out IMHO

 

[Ray Vardy]

So, switching SO off and the bass (but with all the associates problems) returns - this must be the root of the problem. Ie everything is connected and working, it must just be setup!

 

[Pennypacker]

So, switching SO off and the bass (but with all the associates problems) returns - this must be the root of the problem. Ie everything is connected and working, it must just be setup!

At least that is sorted out. maybe a setting in SO or a wrong digit/decimal is screwing things up in the position set up.

 

[Jail4CEOs2]

So, switching SO off and the bass (but with all the associates problems) returns - this must be the root of the problem. Ie everything is connected and working, it must just be setup!

I just want to be sure, it sounds fine now? No issues?

The thornier issue about SPACE could fill volumes. I have been an advocate of SPACE until my Katalyst upgrade. I have had SPACE off with Kat. With it on, I still like it a lot, and it's very much what I've grown used to. But Kat, and my tunedem job, are so good that it sounds really good without SPACE.

Initially the bass was overwhelming, but then I realised I needed to tweak my sub. Without SPACE corrections coming from my Exaktbox sub, my sub was running factory defaults. Once I made the changes to roll off and corrected phase the bass was, as goldilocks says, just right.

So Ray you've got a journey now. First tunedem the speakers with SPACE of to where they sound best. This should take a couple of weeks. First find distance from rear wall, then width, then go back and find tune distance from the rear again. Then live with it for a while. Then try to fine tune further. Even if you think where they are is perfect now. Make some wild moves in width. Sometimes you go through a valley or two before you hit the final peak.

Once you get to where they sound as best as you can, measure accurately and input that into SPACE. Once you click enable SPACE, BOOM all your bass is gone!

Don't despair. Now live with this setting for another few weeks. Understand what Linn is trying to do. Revel in the details and clarity and overall tautness of the bass you are now experiencing, how easy it is to locate and follow each instrument and player.

Then start playing with the main sliders and the materials sliders. See if you can gain back bass, if you feel you need it, using them.

This should have taken two months. You'll be more in touch with your system. Tunedemming will have taught you a lot about your system. What it can and can not do.

This is a good link to help:

https://www.hifiwigwam.com/threads/...ptimisation-v1-simplified-october-2018.85172/

 

[Bianchennero]

i had the same problem with 2 4200 and 212 active. all wrong from the shop. starting problem: internal jumpers. the dealer forgot to put the longer one that "bypassed" the power supply, I resolved problem with 2 external RCA cable from 2nd to 3th channel, one for 4200, this sound problem was obvious, correctly immediately. second problem, much worse because less obvious than the first problem, so I realized it after 6 months because I wasn't satisfied with the sound as it wasn't what I expected and then the dealer told me I had to get used to the new aktiv configuration: I opened the speakers and I realized that the internal connection was wrong, they were in active configuration but with the passive filter connected ( in the passive configuration: passive socket with the passive connector, active socket with the active connector; correct active configuration: remove the two plugs, put the passive in the active socket, or vice versa I don't remember and leave the other empty. in the active the shopkeeper had simply exchanged my two connectors).
Unfortunately in Italy I have had some bad experiences with hi-fi shops, I'd like to open a discussion about our experiences in hi-fi shop..only a shop in Cremona city is five stars!

 

[Jail4CEOs2]

i had the same problem with 2 4200 and 212 active. all wrong from the shop. starting problem: internal jumpers. the dealer forgot to put the longer one that "bypassed" the power supply, I resolved problem with 2 external RCA cable from 2nd to 3th channel, one for 4200, this sound problem was obvious, correctly immediately. second problem, much worse because less obvious than the first problem, so I realized it after 6 months because I wasn't satisfied with the sound as it wasn't what I expected and then the dealer told me I had to get used to the new aktiv configuration: I opened the speakers and I realized that the internal connection was wrong, they were in active configuration but with the passive filter connected ( in the passive configuration: passive socket with the passive connector, active socket with the active connector; correct active configuration: remove the two plugs, put the passive in the active socket, or vice versa I don't remember and leave the other empty. in the active the shopkeeper had simply exchanged my two connectors).
Unfortunately in Italy I have had some bad experiences with hi-fi shops, I'd like to open a discussion about our experiences in hi-fi shop..only a shop in Cremona city is five stars!

Holy frack!

I'm kinda lucky having these forums, old Linn and here. I've had five different Linn speakers that I've made each passive and Aktiv several times, thanks to the guidance here. Several amps too. The main thing I've taken from this is all these speakers (and amps), as you've discovered, have well labeled innards. It's funny the dealer, who had probably dealt with more than five speakers, made mistakes. Maybe he got cocky, and thought he could go quick and cut corners? I'm glad you got them sorted. I would love to hear 212's Aktiv monoblock 4200's! But you should hear them exakted!

Anyway, this should be a little daunting to make a system Aktiv, but if you're fastidiously careful, it's easy to do it correctly.

We're all eagerly awaiting how your journey goes Ray!